Anyhoo, I’d like more platonic and familial paired endings, like Saleh & Myrrh or Duessel & Amelia in Sacred Stones.
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I would love to see more stories that break away from conventional Fire Emblem storytelling. Nothing wrong with the typical “prince goes on a quest to stop evil empire from conquering the world by defeating the dark cult in charge”, but its just very simple, and feels more like a framing device to explain why you’re fighting in various locations rather than a story that wants to explore interesting themes.
Hacks like Drums of War really go the extra mile in grounding the story and making the world feel alive rather than being the narrative equivalent of Mario Odyssey.
As for gameplay, I think it would actually be fascinating to play a hack designed around permadeath not being a feature. Yeah, it is a core part of Fire Emblem’s identity, but its also a pretty contentious part at that. (Exhibit A: see the arguments above)
Something like Triangle Strategy, where every unit has an irreplacable niche that you can mix and match for different fights without needing to worry about redundancy. I also think that it would make for a far less punishing experience for many players who often choose to save state away deaths rather than play through them (myself included). I also generally prefer having a smaller cast of characters anyways, which would be easier to faciliate in such a game.
EDIT: Ooh, you know what else I’d love to see? More Puzzle hacks, where you have a cast of generics on every map that don’t carry over anything onto the next, and you have to try to win with the tools available to you. Something similar to Bandit Emblem, basically.
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Thread contribution:
I’d honestly like to see more early game female archers party splits in fire emblem. Not to be confused with a route split I want a 2 part chapter where you play the first with some of your units and the other half with the rest of them. Fire emblem never sold that whole large scale battle thing because we’re always severely outnumbered. I wanna see games lean more into the whole detached unit vibe.
Wall of text
Yes, finally!
A swing and a miss. We will come back to this though. I’ll start by responding to you, explaining why you’re wrong, and then clarifying and recontextualizing my original thought AGAIN.
See you seem to be conflating difficulty settings with gameplay settings, which is fair. It happens all the time. Lets think about how difficulty in fire emblem is selected in your favorite game Fire Emblem: Fates
Now casual may seem like a “Different difficulty” but its actually a completely separate mode because you can’t play on two difficulties at the same time. IT EVEN SAYS MODE. I called casual a cheat code because it undermines the challenge of fire emblem by changing how the game functions. Merriam Webster defines a “Cheat Code” as such:
Obviously its not a “Code” but games have togglable cheats all the time.
Why is casual mode a cheat code? Because it removes a set of lose conditions and an entire facet of the game difficulty. Fire emblem difficulty come from map design primarily but its also got resource management in the form of units and items. Lets do a direct comparison because the most people don’t grasp what the differences are. In vanilla when you lose a unit you lose, them, all their exp, their entire inventory, in some cases access to an entire class/prf/chapter/other unit, a deployment slot, and whatever supports they had with other party members. What do you lose on Casual? Nothing. Maybe a turn or 2 at most. So I we were to play the exact same, THE EXACT SAME mistakes and all. I’d get punished and you wouldn’t you no longer need to manage your resources, AT ALL. And if you do, you don’t have to do it carefully. THAT’S CHEATING. Infinite/Near Infinite resources is the most common cheat code there is, and its RIGHT THERE.
Now normally when you make an argument, you support it. I made a statement, you made and argument against it. BUT YOU’RE WRONG ANYWAYS. WHY because we already established that casual mode undermines the resource management aspect but it also completely removes the Risk/Reward dynamic of fire emblem with NO EXCEPTION. You may say, “well what about restarting every time, that pretty much casual” and you’d still be wrong. You lose progress, the penalty for restarting the map is restarting the map. There’s no penalty to casual because there is no risk. A strategy game with no risk reward is hardly a challenge, we know this. Its why permadeath exists. Without it the fire emblem becomes a series of Mini, self contained challenges where you always have access to all your resources. Each map only really matters on its turn, the difficulty is no longer dynamic because the game no longer gets easier/harder depending on your performance.
Lesk says it best here:
Fire emblem as it was “intended” would allow for a FINITE amount of mistakes before you could no longer complete the game. Your run DIES. If I’m designing a strategy game to have a challenge why would I account for your actions NOT having consequences. Why would I NOT punish bad strategies.
I wasn’t making fun of you or being antagonistic. I was serious. Lets read them both together shall we. I EVEN BROKE IT UP FOR YOU
This sentence means the same thing as the one below. I admit that “preferred way of playing the game” is “valid”
Lets analyze it piece by piece and break it down as we go!
| Column 1 | Column 2 |
|---|---|
| Not to say that | [I am not saying] |
| Casual players are not valid | [Casual players are invalid] |
| in their preferred way of playing the game | [by playing how they want] |
| they are | [they are fully valid] |
Resynthesize!
[I am not saying][Casual players are invalid][by playing how they want][they are fully valid]
I say this again, four times.
You’re free to play the game however you like.
I respect your decision to play in a way different to how I play.
The way you enjoy the game is just as valid as how I enjoy the game and you are free to make any future decisions with regards to how you find that enjoyment.
I respect your autonomy to make your own decisions, those decisions are fully valid.
LETS DO THE SECOND HALF!
| Column 1 | Column 2 |
|---|---|
| they’re just not entitled | [Others are not required to provide] |
| to any respect beyond the fact | [anything further than] |
| that it is a decision they are allowed to make | [basic recognition and acceptance of their choice] |
Resynthesize again!
Others are not required to provide][anything further than][basic recognition and acceptance of their choice]
What do you know I said that again twice
But that’s it all you get and from what I can tell that’s what you want.
Casual mode is an alternative way to play fire emblem and I fully respect your choice to play that way.
So when you read this
And “Translate” it into this
I can only assume you either can’t read or didnt understand it. also this
Proves my point. You didn’t understand it. It went your head as defined by the Merriam Webster thesaurus
You’re punching above your weight. Don’t.
Sometimes I think you just talk to talk. The comparison is that gutter guards in bowling serve the same purpose as casual mode. It removes the biggest aspect of difficulty from the challenge. In bowling that’s the gutter; in Fire Emblem that’s unit death. Bowling with gutter guards it completely fine, its a single lane and other people don’t have to use them. Just like casual mode. But neither are designed around its use because it undermines the the challenge in such an invasive way. The gutter exists to pose a problem for the player. Players performances cannot be influenced by other players, just like in fire emblem. So the only thing stopping you from getting a perfect score is yourself. With gutter guards you will hit at least 2 pins every frame, you can’t lose. Just like in casual mode. “But wait” , you might think, “I can lose if my lord dies!” Yeah and you can still gutter ball with the guards up. That analogy was not an accident. My point with the analogy was it would serve no real purpose to create a challenge with no real lose condition if the goal of the challenge is to test a skill of some sort.
I don’t want “people” to engage with me I want you to engage with me. Answer this question within the context of the discussion:
Another thing.
You seem to think I care if people think I don’t like them. Let me clarify I have no issue with casual players, I never have. With regards to specific people I also don’t care if the think I don’t like them. I’ll clarify it even more
I Don’t Like You @theghostcreator
You argue dirty, you’re passive aggressive, you’re needlessly condescending and you’re a hypocrite. You don’t get to tone police, at all. Don’t do it.
We will come back to this though
Remember that?
Your "Tone"
To those who haven’t been paying attention here’s a recap:
RECAP
I make a statement, ghost cherry picks a part of that statement to misconstrue and mock. I clarify that part of the statement in so much detail that it cannot, in good faith be misconstrued and then pose a question toward ghost. Ghost then ignores that question, goes back to the original statement and then beings to address the tone of that statement rather than the content within it.
TL;DR Bro is running
Now either argue the point or don’t respond.
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I agree with both parts of your post, but i’ll only comment on the First one:
I absolutely agree and would love to see more party splits. I love to mention kaga games and i will have to mention tear ring saga once more here, but that’s just because it does a good job at this compared to say Radiant Dawn.
From a storytelling perspective a party split obviously gives you different perspectives so that’s great, be it different armies showing you that both of the countries fighting each other have their good and bad sides, or just two friends fighting for a common goal under different circumstances.
The other thing that may not be as apparent at first: You simply get to try out and use so many more units. Usually due to the way FE is designed you tend to never really train more than say 12-18 units at any given time. Maybe you’ll rotate your roster every now and again depending on the maps, but some units just hit the bench and stay there. Having split parties means you can up the amount of “actively” used characters to 24-36, which shows you so many more of a game’s often quite fun cast of characters, and makes extremely competitive deployment slots less competitive (just think of units like Miledy, Rutger or Haar, who can sometimes “hurt your mind” so to speak, to not use atleast a little bit).
That being said it is not super easy to implement as you’d essentially be developing two games in paralell to each other, while also having to somehow fit together again at times, or “unite” the two somehow so at the end.
Would still absolutely love to see more FE projects give this concept a try, even if not executed perfectly.
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While it might not exactly be what you look for, Swords and Peace has that, somewhat.
And joint chapters featuring 40+ units by the end of content (you only get half the preps, suffer)
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All the discussions itt aside, I agree when it comes to mainline games/traditional hacks that more or less strive to emulate them. But Server 72 ([LT] Server 72 [COMPLETE]) shows that you can make an “FE” game that’s balanced around casual mode, it fundamentally wouldn’t work in Classic Mode and even in “forced casual mode” it’s one of the most challenging FE-likes I’ve played. Although it is arguable if it can even still be called “FE” when a lot of the systems are very different, otoh a lot of the systems are still classic FE, so I think its worth mentioning as a counter argument.
Also I guess a game definitely can’t be balanced around both, if a game is reasonably completeable in permadeath mode, casual mode IS akin to a cheat code that makes the game a lot easier.
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To cap off this argument (this will be my last reply on this topic) after turning it over in my head I’ve decided to be honest and upfront
Warning, things get personal. Tldr: sorry, I react strongly to negativity. /srs
This conversation has caused me much stress and anxiety, although this last comment cut deeper in what I believe to be an unintentional way.
To rip the bandaid off and state cleanly, your usage of the word “bro” triggered a lot of gender dysphoria for me. It may seem silly I know or that I’m blaming you but I really don’t blame you for this. “Bro” as a term is something used commonly and without second thought, I personally have used it frequently. So before I go further I want to ask that you don’t refer to me in that way again, no hard feelings, just a request.
Secondly, I’ll be very upfront yes it was very hypocritical of me to talk about tone. Tone in my own writing is something I struggle with as an autistic person especially with matters that make me highly emotional. Fire Emblem is my special interest and as such talks of negativity stir up really strong emotions in me, especially in matters relating to how I play the game.
This conversation especially has lead me to realize that being in this space is detrimental to me emotionally. To state it with no intent of being sarcastic or backhanded, a space this negative is not a place that someone who thinks so positively about a lot of these games can find much agreement in, and honestly I am still coming to terms with that.
I’ve been wanting to step away from the discussion side of the forums for a while now but couldn’t because it did just bring such emotions out of me but I do want to make an effort to step away this time, this space isn’t for me and that’s fine, it’s just how it is.
I’ll still use this space for posting my creative endeavors in romhacking of course but as for discussion based threads I think I’m going to step away.
Lastly as a final note I genuinely do think that it’s a little insincere to pull up dictionary definitions of things like cheat codes, I understand where you’re coming from but terms like “cheat codes” carry specific connotations that dictionary entries can’t really capture so for your future discussions I hope you don’t make that a habit as it doesn’t contribute to anything but as a “gotcha” moment.
Thank you for your time
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First, no. It isn’t. It’s a mode.
Second, the entire point was that this view you hold is obnoxious and toxic. That it’s frustrating and annoying. Look at what was actually initially said, okay?
As a response, this sounds honorable and of noble intention, but then turning around and saying
means you don’t actually respect these people. You feel they are cheating. That they are playing the game wrong is the clear implication from the words you have actually penned, even if that is not the meaning you meant.
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I hope this doesn’t come across as me trying to lecture you cause i do respect you a lot but i’ve been noticing you’ve been replying a lot to these community threads that go off topic.
By no means do I mean to say you should voice your opinions and have a say of the matter but as you’ve said these have been a major stressor for you.
I’ve been through a period of life where I felt i needed to argue what’s on my mind, I’ve told this story once in another post. I was debating with my mom about something i don’t remember until my aunt told me " I wasn’t talking very respectfully to my mom" it wasn’t my intention but that shock me a lot.
Sometimes true strength is to let things lie. Matter of fact is all the arguments in the world as logically sound and evidence base will have little effect to the other party. humans are irrational and to persuade change a person can’t put themselves in opposition to the other.
Discussion’s fun until it starts to make both parties’s day worse in which case it might be time to pull back and laugh about it.
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I think this whole argument has kind of devolved into what “cheating” means in the context of playing Fire Emblem. Does cheating mean that you undermine the intentions of the creator’s design by making things easier? If anything, what do “creator intentions” mean in this case?
If I add cheat codes into my game as a fun tool or secret, do I now have to design my game around the possibility that those cheat codes could be used? Obviously not. However, this is because cheat codes are presented in such a manner that a normal player probably won’t confuse them for being an intentionally designed-for mechanic. The Fire Emblem equivalent to this would be something like save states, which are obviously not something any good designer should be making their hacks around. (Obviously, FE rom hack creators aren’t in control of the functions of emulators, but you get the idea)
I think the confusion here is that you and Ghost believe that the presentation of Casual Mode as an authentic option makes it so, while Ysor believes that the very concept of Casual Mode is so unbalanced and poorly designed in comparison to the original work that it acts more like a cheat code. So while Ysor is critiquing the concept of Casual Mode being presented as a “game mode”, it is still being presented that way at the end of the day, and until we come to an agreement that such a mode is on par with stuff like save states, 100% growths, Perfect Luck, etc., then it is not unreasonable to believe that casual mode is an “alternative means of playing Fire Emblem” on par with playing Fire Emblem on Easy Mode.
Obviously, no one should be bullied for how they play Fire Emblem. Heck, I play with save states, so I can understand the sentiment behind wanting to see Casual Mode normalized as a way to play Fire Emblem. However, while this might be “valid” in the sense that my choices should be respected as an individual, it is not something that should merit serious consideration when discussing anything related to the game’s design.
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Second thread contribution
I think I’d also like to see more invasive difficulty changes, something that really shakes up the game. My hack goes from 2rn to 1rn on Hard but I’d also like to see something like HP not recovering between chapters or switching the AS formula from [Spd - (Wgt - Con)] to [Spd - Wgt]. I think its at least worth experimenting with and I may do so in the future
If you’re gonna stand on this I’ll respond but I’m not too keen on being rough with you Wan. Just saying.
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By mode you mean modification, its a gameplay modifier. There are tons of game modes that can be considered cheating. Creative mode in Minecraft, Heaven and Hell(All enemies die in one hit) in Devil may cry, Auto acceleration + Smart steering in Mario Kart 8. Its not a concept specific to fire emblem or SRPGs at all. Cheating in the context of Fire emblem is stuff like glitches, exploits, save scrumming, rigging crits/levels, or resurrecting units. That last one is weird because main line Fire emblem was and still is designed around permadeath. Removing the penalty for making a mistake is a very simple to understand cheat. Fire emblem structures it weird but its still cheating, akin to having infinite health in GTA. I can ONLY fail if I can’t complete the mission/ secondary task. In this context the main task is surviving. To transfer this to fire emblem, I no longer have to worry about managing any of my units/resources and can instead focus entirely on clearing the objective with no regards to Risk/reward with my decisions.
This is what I meant when I said I didn’t want to be rough. No disrespect to you, but by no conceivable metric are you allowed to dictate how I personally view anything. My opinion is not up to you and in no way are you entitled to being viewed positively by me. I don’t care, nor will I ever care, about your opinion of MY opinion. Just because you don’t like what I think does not mean it should change.
I addressed this several times. I respect that you can chose to play the game how you want. I cannot stress enough how little I give a FUCK about someone enjoying things differently than I do. You are free to make your own decisions and enjoy whatever you want however you want. It makes no difference to me.
That should have been enough.
When did I say cheating was wrong? I never said it, you’re reading too far into that. You’re allowed to play with in game cheats. Hell its a single player game play with out of game cheats too. Do you need my permission? I play games with cheats ALL THE TIME. Saints row, GTA, Halo, Slay the spire, Bombrush Cyberfunk, The sims, Animal crossing, Tears of the kingdom, Breath of the wild, hell I even cheated in Stardew valley. Its a long list. Whether it was exploits, glitches, cheat code, or skips. I made the choice to do so. That choice its personal to me and should be respected but people don’t have to like that I played the game that way.
That’d be like if I said green was an ugly color and someone whose favorite color was green told me I, " didn’t respect green as an alternative color of preference" Like what??? My opinion of the color green doesn’t indicate my opinion of people who like green
I think you need to define “respect” in this context because we aren’t using the same definition.
And if you’re not going to answer this question, don’t respond.
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The Phantom King of RandomMercenary is a good example of it. Well, the only one I can think of that implements the “two parties” concept.
You play as two lords from differents countries that are at war, so you can see the perspective from both sides.
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Thanks for the reccomendations, i’ll give them a try!
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Unusual on topic comment: PLAYABLE MONSTERS!!, yknow how it is, I’m the monster guy do yknow I’ll be on that case
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when does a man become a monster
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Playable monsters sound great, the both of your comments gave me an idea:
Normal FE style fantasy setting. Maybe you fight a normal FE style war at first, and start hearing about this plague a good way into it, seeing as the war is more important, you choose to ignore the stories at first, until you see it’s horrifying results at first hand. Monstrosities that can barely even be called human anymore. Your main goal then becomes to find the plague’s roots and stop them before it’s too late, but as you play even your own soldiers start to slowly mutate, by the end of it, a good amount of your team are no longer fully human, they’ve become a pack of mutated… things that may cling onto the same goal as they did when human, maybe not even knowing why anymore, kinda like zombies in media who follow their old human daily routines.
Every unit could mutate and you’d have a hidden “mutation” counter per unit so to speak, where slowly you will start to see weird things sneak into their mannerisms and actions, without outright telling you they are starting to change. If you do not have met the conditions for keeping the unit, they will silently leave your team in the middle of the night without explanation, at the end you would have to fight them alongside the main boss. The conditions could be anything from getting them to support another unit in time, having them personally kill the man they swore revenge on, and so on.
Thank you for coming to my monstrous ted talk.
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I could honestly see someone making an FE8 remake with this concept in mind, ala. The Princess’s Lament. I think the player would probably have to be told about the potential dangers of mutation ahead of time, which unfortunately kinda drags the surprise of the whole idea a tad. However, I think that it’s better that players aren’t softlocked because the game takes away their units because of a hidden mechanic they had no knowledge of.
(The cast would also have to be, like, very small. Otherwise you have a bunch of vulnerable units in the backline waiting to be mutated through no fault of the player.)
I’m honestly kinda mixed on hard mode having “invasive” difficulty changes, since it really depends on how fun the “invasive” features are to play with. Radiant Dawn seems like the best example of this type of difficulty in the series, and it seems… kinda bad? I’d say removing QoL features like global range checking is artificial in its difficulty, and I’m also not a big fan of removing the weapon Triangle either. I think the only change I really agree with would be removing battle saves, but that is a feature specifically meant to be a cushion for mistakes rather than a QoL feature. For any game that has Divine Pulse, for example, removing that option (or harshly limiting it) would be a good feature on harder modes.
I’d say better invasive difficulty involves adding some extra factor to consider rather than removing or altering what already exists. So a universal turn limit to prevent stalling/grinding, or fatigue requiring you to switch out units, would probably be better to implement. But even these need to be tested rigorously, with the mode accomodating the new mechanics in a way that doesn’t frustrate the player unnecessarily.
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This reads like expanding on ‘Challenge’ modes tbh, making modifiers othen than the known Lunatic Reverse or 0% growths
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Ahem Counter argument:
MONSTER GIRLS!!
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