Updating FE's Magic System

Design
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So I think a lot of people generally agree that Fire Emblem’s Magic tends to be a bit lackluster. At its worst, tomes tend to just be slight variations of iron, steel and silver weapons, with only a few tomes having special effects (usually limited to dark magic),while physical weapons seem to have the freedom of being more varied or interesting.

Not to say that I don’t think there are acceptations, but those are few and far in between. Magic needs a bit of an update if it hopes to stand out as much as it wants. I have a few suggestions, but most of the things I have to talk about seem to be pretty common among the community and a lot of the romhacks I’ve seen.
Mostly it just boils down to giving each type of magic it’s own unique identity, and by making the class lines that use said magic feel distinct from one another.

Below are my own personal ideas for my own projects/ideas. Most are pretty typical to what I’ve seen be suggested here, or elsewhere.

How I Design Magic In My Own Project(s)

The magic triangle has been slightly altered. If you have an advantage, you now deal +3 damage in addition to the extra hit and avoid. This is to help mitigate the problem where having advantage against a spellcaster doesn’t really matter for damage, since spellcasters usually have decent/high resistance stats. You could also just remove it if you wanted to.

Anima magic is the most common type of magic, and boasts a variety of spells with varying stats, providing interesting strengths and weaknesses to each tome. Fire is powerful but heavy. Thunder has high range, but can’t double. Wind has high accuracy, but low might. I could go on. This type might also have exclusive access to things like physical tomes, or brave effects, or something along those lines.
Mages and Sages tend to have higher skill/dexterity than other spellcasters, but are otherwise pretty similar to vanilla.

Light magic is the most expensive type of magic, and doesn’t have the highest might, but it’s accuracy and critical hit chance tend to be pretty good. It provides supportive effects to the wielder or to allies, maybe increases attack, defense and other stats. I also think all Light tomes should be effective against monsters, but if you don’t want to do that, then this tome type could have access to the only monster-effective tome.
Clerics, Bishops, and Monks tend to have higher speed and luck, as well as some of the highest resistance. This cements them as the magic tanks of your army.

Dark magic gets to be fun. It’s the least common type of magic, but is also the least expensive(save for a few special tomes. It’s stronger but more inaccurate, and pretty heavy. To make up for it’s weaknesses, it has traits like chaotic effects in battle, higher ranges, and being able to inflict status effects. We already have a few examples of tomes that have fun effects, like Luna and Eclipse, but I’ve thought of a few others that are pretty strong, but have some drawbacks. Like a tome that cannot counter or be countered, a tome lowers the user’s critical avoid but has insane crit itself, or a tome with the devil effect.
Dark Mages and Sorcerers tend to have high magical power, but surprisingly lack resistance, instead focusing on physical power and defense.

This is all pretty typical opinions and design choices in the community from what I’ve seen, but I’ve also considered/implemented another type of magic; Druidic/Nature magic.

Nature magic does not interact with the weapon triangle and is the second rarest type of magic. The idea for Nature magic is that it focuses almost entirely on doing effective damage to specific unit types (cavalry, armored, flying etc). In a game where the only consistent effective damage is bows, with other options either being less frequent or with lower durability, I imagine having a weapon type dedicated to that purpose would be helpful. You could also do some fun things with terrain bonuses I imagine.
If this idea isn’t great, or doesn’t fit in your game, it’d be easy to spread effective damage across the other magic types.

With that, I’m gonna leave it off here. How would you/ do you make more interesting in your games? What would you like to see in the future titles (if there are any lol)?

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Obvious shill here, but Gaiden’s HP-draining magic is a really fun risk-reward style

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TRUE
I kind of miss it in the newer titles. It’s so interesting.

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Well,
If changing everything, why keep the anima-light-dark split at all? Maybe invent new schools of magic, more suitable for your hack? :thinking:

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TBH I prefer how most FEs handle it. Single weapon type with some unique tomes for certain characters or classes. Aura is wayyy cooler in Archanea compared to any of its appearances as a “light” tome.

Sure, you can have separate light from anima but all this really achieves is flavor. Plus bishops using elemental magic has precedent in Archanea anyway :grinning_face:

Dark is just gimmick tomes. Flux, Fenrir and the like aren’t needed. Only Nos, Luna really do anything and they can simply be locked to dark mages/sorcerers.

Like magic triangle is irrelevant because only one out of five of your units are even going to be mages. Ditto for enemy units. Combine the two and you get 1/25 combats between mages. Not very important.

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Hot take but I made magic 2 range based in my hack, though there’s a few flavour ranges at 1 and 1-2.
Dark hits hard, Light has defensive effects like +defense, anima has combat oriented options like always doubles on attack, etc

Double hot take, I think crit on light doesn’t fit the vibe of “holy magic” if anything light should be the most defensive or supportive magic type.

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My preference on this is as follows:

  1. Increase the number of tomes to at least be a little bit closer to the physical weapons.
  2. Introduce “Spells” which function like 3H’s magic and which all characters always have access to (learned via level up or via something similar to Skill Scrolls which permanently teach the magic) - limited numbers of charges which refill between maps and which have wider applications of effects - AoE magic, magic which doesn’t trigger counterattacks, etc.
  3. Give most magic at least some kind of effect attached to it - it’s magic after all. This does not need to be bombastic but it should be significant. More on this with examples below.
  4. No unified Tome rank. Giving classes access to specific schools of magic helps boost diversity of units. Instead of making a Dark Flier with Lances/Tomes, make them Lances/Wind. This way, you also inherently limit certain combinations from being abusable.
  5. No traditional Weapon Triangle for magic. In a non-ROM Hack world, focus instead on modifications when the user initiates combat versus when they are defending/counterattacking after a foe. For example, using Wind Magic might reduce Hit/Dmg of a foe using Fire Magic when then initiate combat, but when the person using Fire Magic initiates combat against the Wind Magic, their attack gains AoE splash damage after combat resolves (a la Savage Blow in Heroes). Something which draws upon the innate attributes of that school of magic and invokes it during battle.

For example of some effects that I came up with for a project which has now been shelved:

Name Rank Range Wt Mt Hit Uses Effect
Cherry Fire E 1-2 1 4 90 30 Can be used as an item to place a Flame Barrier on any tile in attack range.
Driver Fire D 2 2 4 70 15 When initiating combat, Mt +2 and enemy knocked backwards 1 tile after combat.
Sandstone Fire C (Earth) 1-2 9 6 70 20 [Corrosion]. (Per hit, [Mag]% chance to decrease foe’s weapon durability by 3.)
Inferno Fire B 1-2 5 8 60 30 When initiating combat, if unit’s last used tome was Inferno, Mt +2 (stacks, no cap).
Noxious Wind D 1-2 4 7 60 20 Poisons the foe on hit. If enemy is already Poisoned when damage would be made, Mt*2 and enemy’s Res treated as 50% less.
Crescent Wind C 1-2 5 4 85 25 When initiating combat, if unit is attacking twice, adds a third attack at the end of combat and moves unit 1 tile backwards away from target.
Silmirror Wind B (Ice) 1-3 10 5 85 20 If any of enemy’s stats > than unit’s, copies those stats during combat.
Ravenstorm Wind B 1-2 3 7 95 18 [Steal]. (If unit’s Spd or Prw > target’s Prw, can steal 1 item.) When initiating combat, if attack hits, enemy is disarmed after combat and enemy’s Spd -(# of hits).
Shock Lightning D 1-2 6 6 75 20 If unit’s attack hits, reduces enemy Str -3, Mag -3 (+1 per turn). (Additional hits reapply to maximum debuff.)
Tachyon Lightning C 2 6 2 80 18 Ignores enemy Res and any damage reductions active on enemy. Unit’s AS +3 when initiating combat.
Arc Lightning C 2-3 5 9 60 12 After initiating combat, unit can Canto 2 tiles or move to a tile adjacent to the enemy after combat.
Chorus Light D 2-3 6 2 ** 20 Gains 1 Mt for every ally within Range 2 of unit. After initiating combat, all allies within Range 3 gain +2 Def, +4 Res until start of next turn.
Halaveh Light C 1 7 12 65 22 After initiating combat, units adjacent to the target have any status effect applied to them removed. Unit gains double EXP while equipped.
Panthienne Light A 2 8 13 70 15 After initiating combat, summons up to 4 (max. 4) allied Phantoms to the map adjacent to the user. (Works like Invoke.)
Blight Dark D 1 6 9 65 20 If foe was damaged by unit’s attack, prevents foe from being healed until the start of unit’s next turn.
Runebringer Dark C 2-3 7 8 70 12 Weapon Mt fluctuates by +/-6. After initiating combat, has a [Lck]% chance of finding a random Tome/Spell.
Serpentine Dark C 1 3 6 ** 18 Always hits (barring Skill/Effect activations). If enemy’s Avoid > unit’s Avoid when combat starts, Mt x2.

In terms of Spells as mentioned in Point 2, here are a few examples of those:

  • Burning Rain (Fire) - Damages all units on the map. If rain is in effect, deals 50% less damage, but stops the rain for 2 turns.
  • Smelt (Fire) - Generates a random physical weapon in the target’s inventory.
  • Shroud (Wind) - Target within Range 0-2 gains Shade and Pass and boosts their evasion by [Caster’s Mag/2]. If a foe is adjacent to the unit, Shade is negated.
  • Transmission (Lightning) - Unit turns into electrical current and zips to target location within Range 1-Mag/2, dealing electric damage to the adjacent tiles. Unit Stuns themself until the start of their next turn.
  • Faraday (Lightning) - Range: 1-5 for target location. Area of Effect: 1-4 around target tile. Does 0 damage and leaves an Aura on map for 3 turns which prevents Armored units within the Aura from moving.
  • Libra (Light) - Range: 1-3. Averages current HP values of user and target and sets both units’ HP values to that average +4.
  • Bloodbane (Dark) - Range: 1-2. If target = enemy and they have a negative status applied, Mt x3. If ally, they are healed 20% of their MHP and any negative status ailment on them is healed.
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My girlfriend @Specnix wants to make a Germanic - Roman centric hack, taking place in the Iron Age.

It’s very challenging in terms of design, as the technological level is far lower than you would see in actual FE games (Armor Knights or Ballistae would hardly exist).

…
So, after giving it much thought, here’s a magic system we came up with:

Magic units would have a Magic Rank. But would not be able to equip Magic tomes. Instead, they have a Gaiden spell list.

However, spells don’t cost HP at all. Instead, magic classes equip items (with Pikmin’s Equipable Items ASM), and while having those items equipped, the unit is able to cast spells. With each use of a spell costing 1 use of the equippable item. Without the item equipped, the unit is unable to cast anything.

These equippable items are not tomes, but instead, Charms. We would probaly give these charms different tiers in a similar vain to iron, steel, and silver weapons. Giving higher and higher stat boosts, and lowering in durability.

We are also considering using hybrid classes, such as Adventurers, War Monks, etc.

Additionally, we wanna make it so only a couple units have magic capabilities. Tu such an extent that, while having Levin Swords and other magical weapons, which are normally 1-2 range, they would only be 1 range for most units. And inly SOME units, who have magic blood, are able to use the ramged attack of magic weapons.

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I don’t hate the idea of just removing the magic triangle all together or reworking it into just one thing. As long as we get more spells and they’re more unique and fun to use, I’ll be happy.
But I do like separating specific types of magic into different categories, usually for lore reasons, and to make spellcasting classes you do get a bit more distinct.

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always the ultimate reason to do anything

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I’ll be honest, I was designing a FE game with nine magic elements and a complex web connecting them. Melee beats Magic, Magic beats Bow, Bow beats Melee. I was so proud of it. Everything was perfectly balanced and perfectly boring because I was making tiny tweaks to the wrong places.

If I praise Tactical Breach Wizards one more time I’ll probably be accused of being paid off by the dev. So I’ll say the story sucked, the tone was a mess, and Zan sucks.

Tactical Breach Wizards recognizes choosing between Bronze/Iron/Steel/Silver weapons and Thunder/Thoron or the Class or Class Promotion that gives you +2 STR vs +2 SPD is all bloat. It works in games where budgeting your money and making more is an interesting challenge. When it’s just there to tell you you’re progressing, it’s boring.

TBW does two clever things. Interesting attacks, and zero growths. Zero growths to ensure the protagonist’s attack that deals 1 damage remains relevant from start to endgame. The magic system doesn’t just give you flavours of damage with minor tradeoffs, it gives you interesting tools and challenges you to make the most of them. Even an attack that does zero damage can reposition someone. And then you get an interesting choice of upgrades to all your abilities when you level up, creating real growth. When my Tank levels up, I’m not putting my Sniper out of a job by promoting her to a Class that uses Bows. I’m trying to decide whether it’s better to upgrade her her charge, her swap, or something else, and which of these interesting upgrades (not just a boring damage buff) gets chosen.

Do I have my sniper shoot a guy for 1 damage? Or have my witch shove him against a wall so that shot does 2 damage? Or aim at the tile near the guy then have someone shove me or that foe to get the sight on the foe get him shot for huge damage? Or have my tank Swap with someone then Charge into a guy to shove him 4 tiles so I can have my witch blast him through a window? Also, there’s a universal resource nearby someone can grab worth 1 Mana. Do I have my sniper get it to grant any ally he can see another action or have my healer get it to revive someone or have my witch get it so she can blast 2 people through 2 windows at once? Once per encounter I can open a portal to hell, is it time or do I save that for a bigger fish later on? Can we kill all enemies on the board this turn or do we need to mitigate incoming genuinely threatening damage and factor that into who stands where and what tools are used and what resources are collected and burned?

It’s so much more interesting than having the Lord hit the Armoured foe with the super effective weapon, and then get Danced and hit the mage with the anti-magic weapon with slightly lower might and higher hit, and then next turn hit the Dragon with the anti-Dragon weapon even though it has slightly higher hit and lower might, meanwhile you hit enemy Myrmidons with Knight spears and Dark mages with Light magic and Pikachu with Earthquake and Spooky enemies with Stench magic.

Minor stat tweaks are a boring way to create variety, and super effective weapons tell you the right answer instead of giving you more interesting tools to think about and experiment with.

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Something we never saw in the mainlines games but that I would like to see would be Mana for mages. It’s basically in every rpg but I think it would be a nice addition with the spell system of Echoes :

The Mage has a third bar now which is a Mana bar, a new stat that can be level up.
When the mage use magic the bar depletes. When the mage no longer has mana he then use his own health to use magic

I think it would be good in a project where u want the magic to be stronger

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Oh yeah, that’s something that would be cool to see implemented in a romhack. The closest things we ever saw do it like this imo were the Tellius games having a special bar for the Laguz that they used to transform, and especially Engage with the Emblem system that determine when you could activate an emblem ring/bracelet.

But otherwise this isn’t something that was clearly done in FE, and something that’s only present in other types of games, like pretty much most RPG’s, including the Megaten games, which actually ended up collaborating with FE several years ago, and even some old beat em’ up games and hack and slash ones (like DMC, although that one isn’t really old perse, but bear with me, okay?).

It would be nice to see an FE romhack that added a new bar that’s used for spells/skills (as an extra detail, it’s length could be based on any stat that isn’t HP, although the one that would work the most would be Strength/Magic). If I was actually coding regularly, I would see if this is possible, although at the level I’m in, I’m not so sure.

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Oh, i’m kinda using that same system for my own hack, tho mages only use mp for their spells, while i relegated physical unit to be able to use mp instead to use combat art so they get access to strong attacks in player phase

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It’s so cool and totally how I would envision that. I have a suggestion even thought I think It’s a bit much but u could add this to magical weapons : Physical units could use mp for the range attack of the wind sword for example and normal durability when its used at one range

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Actually do have this planned, but all magic weapons use mp for any action, but they would be thracia tier of strong, also helps for also making enemies have certain spells as weapons but not gaiden spell list

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Haven’t seen it mentioned yet, but I’m a big fan of introducing damage-dealing staffs as a nice “neutral” magic weapon type, if you’re leaning into the magic triangle. A few of my personal projects have a staff called “Harm” which is just a low-might damage dealing weapon that gives Staff wexp. It has only about 15 uses and it’s not cheap, but it’s nice to give to a healer to have them do things other than, you know, heal.

The alternative to this would just be to give healers access to an offensive magic type off the bat. I’ve done that as well, where Clerics got a rank in Light magic and Troubadours got a rank in Anima. It was…fine. Made them overshadow the non-healing magic units so I would recommend either limiting the weapon rank or doing something else to make Mages/Monks/Shamans stand out.

Outside of staves, I generally go with the following:

  • Anima - Deals raw damage. Wind magic is effective against flying units
  • Light - Lower in Mt than Anima but usually provides staff boosts to the wielder.
  • Dark - Higher in Mt than Anima but lower in Hit, usually inflicts a debuff or some other negative effect.

It’s pretty basic, but it works. As I transition more into doing projects in LT than Builder, I think I’ll likely try to make some more complex spells/staffs.

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You know what else had an awesome Magic system? Persona 5 Tactica. Shove foes around and inflict status conditions and knock them down for a big AOE, it was awesome. I just wish there was more to think about than how to make the biggest triangle. Surely there are ways to make elemental interactions more interesting. Like Genshin Impact and Cassette Beasts and Clair Obscur Expedition 33.

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Please never put Cassette Beasts in the same category as Gacha Hellfuck for any reason ever again.

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“Gacha Hellfuck”? If you think that’s bad check out Arknights. They have an alarm clock app in the menus except it rewards you with characters when done and your chance of a better character goes up the longer the alarm takes. The game is designed for you to not play it. That’s just stupid. Give me Expedition 69: Depression Of The French any day. I played Arknights and wrote notes while playing and wrote a long-ass review and then I forget if I posted it anywhere or not.

Also, on topic, everyone here should play Triangle Strategy, it’s peak and does an excellent job making the spells interesting, not just multiple boring flavours of the same damage.