Defense Chapters…., there’s always the question of how to make them good, or how they should be handled
The Big ones I see are ‘Survive/Protect X for Y turns’, or ‘Survive OR defeat commander’, then you have the rare ‘Fight until your all dead’ akin to StarCrafts “In utter darkness” level
Any of you know any good defense chapters in recent memory? Be it from FE series itself, or Romhacks that handled them particularly well. Part of me always imagined a defense chapter with mostly generics where at some point, you could hire more units as reinforcements, It would be quite funny to see a Trainee in a defense chapter be a max’d T2 or even T3 by the time its over
But I don’t think anyone’s here to listen to my conceptualization yapping, Your ideas for gimmicks for Defend chapters, or Good defend chapters you’ve seen around, Shoot.
Ch.10 of Conquest is good (Though that seems to be a more common opinion.), it has different things to look out for (Pegasus Knights, Dragon Vein, etc) it has multiple ways to be played (Ex. Killing Takumi before Dragon vein pop, getting all houses, etc), it just has good variety.
Ch.19 of Sacred stones “Last Hope” I have fond memories of. Having a actual target to protect is cool (Like Fe.7), the enemies from what I recall where quite varied (Generals with Brave Weapons), and the fact it’s fog of war just adds so much tension, and atmosphere. Biggest problem is that Riev (Chapters boss), ends the map early if you defeat him. While secondary objectives like that are cool as hell. I feel like they should be added on, rather there from the start. (Ex. On turn 7 Riev appears with some Monster units, which is we keep same turn count is halfway through the turn order), things like that make it so you still experience the defense aspect for the first half, but in the second half (through sheer luck, and planning) can finish earlier, or just go until the turn order. Something like that (and possibly a reward) can help make the experience more rewarding, and enjoyable. Also the Chapters name is raw as hell.
General Notes: Defense Maps (To me) are best done like this:
- Multiple objectives (either for completing the map, or making it easier) making it so people of all playstyle can enjoy the map.
- Alternate Ending: Following up on my last point. It’s important that having a quicker finish for the more bold/prepared players, is a nice way to valuate, that all playstyles can work. Just that you got to play by the games rules first (remember your not on the attacking side here, the enemies are setting the pace of battle not you).
- Powerful enemies: In Defense chapters, the narrative tends to set you in a sorrowful, and dreadful situation (“Battle before Dawn”, “Last Hope”, etc). You got to make the player feel it y’know? So while it certainly be annoying (Ex. Ursula), it also helps build in the dread, and direness of the situation, showing who’s really in charge (Ex. Ch.9 Path Of Radiance).
- Well Spaced choke points: Defense maps need choke points, if they don’t it becomes hard to manage (Ex. Conquest Ch.10 after Dragon Vein), while it may be good for the later half of the map (Again Ch.10 Conquest), and if the chokepoint is just a narrow line, it’s not that unique or fun now you feel.
- Other side: Of course at the end of the day, what one believes to be treasure, could be utter trash to another. So please if anyone has anything to say against, or add, which please do. We don’t improve if we stay silent.
Apologies for the slush of text, just that this topic is really interesting. So thank you for bringing it up. It was nice to think/talk about. And I hope others do the same.
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Im fine with the text wall, Appreciate the input, Hearing of all this gave me an idea for a defense map.
Large town Siege, you only get a few of your units and a lot of generics, vs a big as hell army
- Ether Survive for X amount of turns (but said X is a LONG time, like turn 80), or kill all ‘generals’
- Every 10 turns you get a choice between calling in more generics (Milita eqsue, Trainees and T1’s), getting some rare items, or money
- Initially, there’s 3 ‘Generals’ on the map, but on the same 10 turn intervals, 2 more spawn, so you cant camp 1 general to end right when you want to
- At each 15-20 Turn interval, a new side objective can be introduced, like a group of green units to escort out, a certain group of foes you MUST kill in time, or a special item appearing briefly
- When the Siege finally ends, You can pick a group of generics to be “kept” to appear in set later chapters to aid you
So midway through the hack its features in, you get a grand Setpiece where you can choose to bombrush and end early, or weather out and survive the waves apon waves of enemies for additional rewards or exp, while Certain thresholds gives more things, and you get a set of Zero to hero units you’ve trained up during the Siege to potentially help later
When you said Large Town Siege All I could think about was Birthright (Ch.12, and Ch.22), and Conquest Ch.13. They are not defense chapters, but still the described atmosphere reminded me of such.
Also the map idea is cool, but something large scale like that can be hard to manage, for both players and developers.
Depending on how you develop your units (and enemy layout) it can either be a breeze, or hell.
Also on those mentioned generals if you wish for a more grand scale set piece. Be sure to build up the three generals (Ex. Previous chapter boss(es), cutscenes, etc).
Make the end flow well with the rest of the game (Ex. Kill all three?—> They don’t appear anymore, but enemies are more aggressive, and it’s a generic boss next chapter over (So A route if you will), kill only two generals?----> Less Aggressive enemies, but two bosses (and generic boss) appear. Escape, without killing any general?----> Easier enemies, and the generals appear much later in a more difficult fight (B route). Now This idea is also a lot of work, and does not cover everything that would need to be done, which requires so much nit-picking to function well. But As long as your willing, anything can be completed.
Understandable, as an ‘ideas guy’ with little knowledge or motivation to romhack, Current things on my mind are closing and wrapping my time with the far too many things im involved in before bothering to take a crack at romhacking one of the far too many ideas in my head
But I do still like to get ideas out there in the 1/1000 chance someone else sees it and thinks its cool
Heh, I consider myself in the same boat. It’s always nice to inspire others to be more, and push on. And make something there proud off. Plus like you said, even if ain’t ourselves who use the ideas, as long as they inspire, that in itself is a reward.
Tellius supremacy incoming, but the ledge mechanic makes for great defense maps. Elincia’s Gambit and Blood Contract from Radiant Dawn are some of the best defense maps, and have some things described earlier. Both can be ended earlier if you defeat the boss, but the boss is challenging and surrounded by several other mini-boss like enemies. They also have fairly long turn limits, so if you stay the intended way, you’ll be there a while. You are MASSIVELY outnumbered, and in Blood Contract, the enemies are no pushovers (when compared to the Dawn Brigade). You have a bunch of NPC allies, and while you don’t get more as the map goes on, you still have a bunch at the start - over double the size of your own army. The ledge mechanic is also perfect for defense maps, and is kinda the whole reason you can survive with the Dawn Brigade - every enemy in Blood Contract aside from the “commander” characters, who you are not really INTENDED to fight (though you still totally can) is locked to 1 range. And the game makes really sure you have 2 range or more - even giving you a super strong 1-2 range sword and a siege tome at the start of the map. You can hold the ledges uncontested, but as soon as you get flanked, you can get into some serious trouble if you aren’t prepared. It’s one of my favorite maps to play, and the unique mechanic (not unique to the map, but unique to the game) and the enemy composition really adds to that.
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