So a bit of an odd idea that I’ve had for a while and wanted to share is “What if you had a Jagen, but they didn’t fall off simply due to their lower growth rates, but rather their weapon type is just extremely limited?”
This idea came from some of the Manakete units in a couple of the older games where you only get 1 dragonstone, and that’s it, if it end up breaking, that unit is pretty much completely worthless for the most part, however you can fairly easily work around these units since they tend to show up towards maybe the last third of the game.
BUT! Let’s say you were to get them at the very start of the game, you still only get the 1 dragonstone, but you have what is essentially a unit that is pretty much prepped for endgame.
You in a snag with chapter that is REALLY kicking your ass? Just send the funny dragon child to solo it, why not?
Did you end up hoarding Dragonstone uses until the last couple of chapters? No problamo, that just means you get a free final victory lap, go have fun mate.
Please lemme know if any of yous got anything to add, have a spin on the idea, or to let me know if this kinda thing has already been done before.
I would say it’s a good idea. But, I think the unit should have inherently low strength (2-5) and the dragonstone have a lot of might and be effective against a certain troublesome class in the hack (eg: if you have a lot of armoured bosses, make it effective against armour). This would allow the jagen to still set up kills for your weaker units, while still being able to help out in a difficult situation via effective damage.
Another question to take into consideration is how many uses you would give the dragonstone. I’d say it depends on the amount of chapters in the hack. Perhaps the amount of chapters times 2 for example. So if there were 20 chapters, you’d give it 40 uses and so on. Perhaps the number of uses could even vary based on difficulty, so on harder difficulties you have less of a crutch to fall on. I also think it’s worth mentioning that you shouldn’t be able to obtain additional uses via hammerne or another dragonstone as that somewhat defeats the purpose.
Regarding growth rates, I think the Jagen should not have reduced growths and exp gain. This would be necessary in order to facilitate him also being a viable pick in the endgame if necessary.
Overall, I think it’s a great idea. It makes it so not only can you use a jagen as a crutch and to set up kills early on, you can also use them as a crutch in difficult late-game chapters while having to manage uses. If you do end up making a hack like this, I would certainly be interested in playing it.
so, it’s a Jagen who becomes completely useless after his first silver lance runs out? I don’t think putting such a limit on a tool like a Jagen is really a good idea as they’re supposed to be an early game safety-net. Putting too many limits on a Jagen runs the risk of players not wanting to use them or players using them too much in the first few maps and struggling later because of it. In vanilla games even if your silver lance runs out on your Jagen they still have pretty good combat and durability to be a safe option, in this case however once their ‘‘silver lance’’ runs out they can’t even be used for combat and their durability would presumably be low without their stone too.
@theghostcreator I don’t really think it would be that much of an issue. For 1, a silver lance has 20 uses, whereas the dragonstone would presumably have around 50 uses. Also, since you would most likely not be doubling with the dragonstone, that only further improves its longevity.
I still believe that it’s an overly restrictive type of Jagen that puts too much of an emphasis on only using them in specific cases and not using them as a general unit that helps out where needed. This also makes it much harder for them to be applied to specific circumstances, for example if a Jagen is too slow to double then they won’t be able to pull out the big damage for taking care of enemies that need to be taken care of.
Overall I think that it can work but I still believe that the classic Jagen is a better alternative.
I admit when I was coming up with the idea I was moreso thinking of how fun the unit could potentially be, rather than how useful they would actually end up being, and yeah I think a lot of it would come down to what kind of hack it would be, and how exactly you’d end up tweaking the unit (probably a bit too much tweaking than any sane lad would want to do).
How high should their bases be? Exactly how many uses should the dragonstone have? Should they have effective damage on priests and clerics because f#$% em?
I mostly like the idea because it could potentially end up simultaneously helping players who are struggling with the game, while also rewarding players who do really well and concerve dragonstone uses so that they could use them on some tougher bosses and whatnot instead.
Maybe it’d work best if you had a traditional Jagen alongside them, instead of as a replacement for them.
Just give them an infinite use bad version of the stone (like monster claws) so they can always have some use and explicitly tell the player the stone is not replaceable (perhaps in the wep desc - we have 3 lines for that now).
I’d also give them a replacement dragonstone (or an improved one with more limited uses) in the last few chapters personally. Weapons are supposed to progress with the game - if the stats are great against endgame enemies, then the dragonstone probably OHKOs every single early / midgame enemy, which I don’t think is necessarily the best design, even for a jeigan. I prefer the suggestion of effective damage.
@Vesly I feel like that would defeat the purpose of what OP is suggesting. That would basically just revert the manakete into a vanilla jagen, but just having them be a manakete just for the sake of it.
The nuance of the idea came with the balancing of the stone and managing its uses throughout the playthrough.
I think it’s better design to make a wasteful player still have some use out of a unit rather than have a complete dead weight unit when the stone breaks.
But yes, I personally wouldn’t design it the way op suggests because I expect that many players would not enjoy this as much. I don’t like to punish players for overusing the jeigan - the exp lost is enough imo.
My intention was not to make it so that the game would punish overusage of your Jagen, I do apologize if it came off that way.
My intention was to give the player a solid option if they were struggling in a certain map, or boss, but not to the point where the unit is sort of like Seth, Titania, or Sigurd where they are almost objectively the best option whenever they are available.
I will say, I like that this provides opportunity to have a wise, old dragon join your party. Have them say, “You must use my power wisely, for it is strong, but limited,” or some such like.
On the balancing side, I feel that it’s a tricky thing to get right, and it makes me think many questions. You can’t make a chapter the manakete would particularly excel in without making sure the player has other options with other units. If you don’t, players are much more likely to feel the burn of overusing that unit carelessly. But if you go too far in making others viable, how would people know when to use the manakete? Would making them unable to counter-attack be a helpful addition so it’s easier to keep them fielded for emergencies or planned attacks?
It seems as if a manakete jeigan is either destined to be a punishing unit for some players (I thought l needed it earlier, but now l really wish l had it) or risks being ignored because it feels like a Megalixir surrounded by plentiful supplies (why use it if l have plenty of other options that do the job?). I’d like to see it done, but it’d be a challenge to do right, to be sure.