How to fix Armor Knights? (Discussion)

Design
21

Ok I’ll answer but first I gotta be an annoying debate sis

sorry Hector is kinda mid at best, his bulk’s kinda bad, he’s pretty slow and stuck in tier one most the game, his move only makes it sadder when he promotes and doesn’t get any better.

Uh anyway yeah in my main project armours have 5 move however barons do not gain move, however they also get armour march and are one of two classes that get the S rank +3 move Lance.
This let’s armours keep up if you use multiple Barons or Armour knights or give them the Daybreaker, although if you give them the lance your Halberdier(s) will miss out and could use it better as a combat tool since armours have weary fighter they are less likely to kill possibly wasting the lance’s power.

They also get access to the S-rank sword and axe, but the axe is less applicable as it is devil and armours are unlikely to max luck and the sword is a rune sword on crack so that’s nice, though it comes late and they use it worse since they can’t double.

they also get to use generic 1-2 range better as it’s very heavy for player units usually player units are doubled if they hold 1-2 range weapons, this was done to encourage player phase play since now you can’t expect to counter and survive without chip on most enemies, however it also made armours able to use them on Enemy phase with them as they have weary fighter, yet their kill power is still limited as they can’t double, a very fun dynamic in my mind.

This also applies to Blades or any other heavy weapon a niche that almost none of your other units can fufill.

4 Likes
22

I’d give them decent strength, def and skill, in my hack they also get short shield and sturdy stance as skills.

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I think what makes a good armor knight with armor knight stats is:
-honestly 5 mov makes sense, maybe give them bigger forest penalties to compensate (what cavs have). People in plate armor can literally do backflips, there is no reason they are walking 20% slower than regular infantry.
-big strenght. Armor is heavy.
-big defence. Armor is protective.
-Lances are okay for regular armor knights, it’s common defensive type weapon. Plus it gives them access to javelins for enemy phase chip dmg.
-around medium skill so they can reliably hit things but not be snipers.
-low res. We have mages for high res tanking.
-low speed. I mean armor is still heavy, they cannot be as agile as regular infantry…

Fun idea whould be armor knight with pretty good res + defence but lower def than typical armor knight and access to basic light or dark magic so they can be some “rune armor knight” subclass or something. We don’t really have tanky mages as while shamans tried to do that, they sorta fall flat in that regard.

4 Likes
24

4-move Armor Knights is OK, but put them in a game that has more movement options (Rescue, Warp, Stride, Reposition, etc.) and you’re good to go. They just need good combat after that. Make sure they get access to Brave weapons in the lategame to keep them from falling behind.

5 Likes
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Kaga managed to make Knights good despite the fact they only had 3 move in Tear Ring Saga, by simply giving them alright stats and skills, aswell as, and i think this is much more important than anything else, designing SOME of the maps with low movement in mind.

That doesn’t mean movement is useless on those maps, rather there are different jobs for different move levels. Reaching a far away village? Yeah you need high move, maybe even flying. But securing your rear from incoming reinforcements which appear from your starting location? Needing to choke a point close to your starting point? Smashing into a horde of enemies next to your starting location and weakening them all while surely surviving? You don’t really need much move for that.

This is something i generally don’t find often talked about in FE circles. While high movement IS good and DOES give you flexibility. It’s not something you necesarrily need on every map in every situation. This is something that’s hard to concretely measure, but you can generally feel the, let’s call it “Move-till-action” ratio i find.

That being said, the 3 armors in TRS all had something else going for then. Norton is meant to be early promoted and gets skills early if he does (early promo does not really hamper your future potential in TRS), his promotion is also a great knight with bad promo gains but 3 extra move.
Billford has a move growth and great skills.
And Zachariah comes prepromoted with great skills.

Not to mention TRS also has terrain skills which give you +1 move on relevant maps (eg. urbanite on city/castle maps)

Berwick on the other hand adds shields into the mix which have durability but add a good amount of def based on stats. Armor knights are the only ones who can use Large shields which give an insane amount of DEF.

Example: Some units have a max of around 9-12 DEF at max level + a smaller bonus from small or medium shields. Derrick, THE armor knight you can get, starts with 14 DEF and can use large shields which can give a casual 12 extra DEF. Shields don’t always procc, it depends on your skill “weapon level”, although your armors also tend to have a really high rank.

You also have games like Shadow Dragon and Path of Radiance Maniac mode, where you can really notice defence snowball after around 23 DEF. After all, if you take 4 damage from 9 enemies and get a single point of defence, you suddenly go from 36 damage to 27 damage.

In those games the really high DEF base, growth and cap is what really makes armor knights great.

I also feel armor knights generally get better during ironmans because of their raw defensive power.

3 Likes
26

I’m surprised of calling your attention!

Funny stuff

A bit off-topic, but some people mentioned that you made some FE1/11 songs, I wanted to have a look on them because I wanted to use them in a hack that I’m currently working on.

I see your point, giving movement tools to the player could make them a bit less painful to manage in big maps

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Okay so if you’re not doing the more movement option which would automatically make them a more viable class the next best option would be to have the game play to their advantages. As an example we’ll use Conquest Effie (Rev Effie is very under-leveled and is as such a mid tier unit at best).

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Effie joins in chapter 7 with this monstrous statline, 14 defense and 13 strength for the time is amazing and comparing it to your other two big combat units at the time, Silas and Corrin…

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As you can see… Quite the advantage. Not even taking into account her personal skill when combined with Arthur as a pair up
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Effie’s personal skill increases her damage by three when she has higher strength than the enemy… Which is basically guaranteed with 17 strength
Infamously this allows her to one shot numerous enemies from base on lunatic, which only gets better when Arthur promotes.

Earlier Fates maps are also so small that Effie can actually reach where she wants to be with Arthur, and if not, Pair up allows her to be ferried by Silas who himself gives decent pairup.

Effie’s one of the best early game Fates units and like all units can easily keep up to endgame. Although she’s a bit more work to keep her as dominant as she was early on, maid being one of her better options believe it or not.

What can we learn from this? Smaller maps, blatantly better stats.

Or just give them movement. That’s better.

6 Likes
28

Gonna answer some responses now!

Being honest my opinion of Hector is a bias one, I never had a bad Hector when I play FE7, most of the time I give him one or two talismans and that’s it, but I see your point, is very dependent of his growths.

That’s a way to put it, they’re are very good at holding choke-points and holding important positions, but also there are units that can over preform a lot better.

Addressing the movement with a nice map design is also something that gets overlooked, it makes sense to help them in that regard.

4 Likes
29

Funny you mention armor knights being weapon locked and needing axes because thats what I talked about in the cav thread

Anyway give them axes for both handaxe and javelins and most impoetantly give them skill, when you dont doyble its all or nothing and being accurate is what defines their matchup agaisnt mages

Other things I think are nice are :

  • Not slown down by rough terrain, they want that terrain more than anybody else and it would also allow them to catch up quicker sometimes

  • Give them five move umpromoted(especially good if you have split promo) or have movement skill like pivot or push, giving them movement also works but its the lazy solution, I found it better to give them another way to move to possibly negate their weakness

  • Give them very high con and give them smash weapons equivalent and by that I mean very heavy and very hard hitting weapons that could help them negate their lack of speed using their high con and now high skill while emphasizing their high strenght, because if engage taught anything about armor knights its that Louis doesnt need to double when he can just oneshot with a 28 might silver greatlance, and that’s before forging and engraving

I am convinced Armor knights should have the highest total base stats of any class by far with STR, SKL and HP among the highest and the highest defence, it doesnt matter if their speed is low when they still tank better then everybody else and hit hard through sheer STR and DEF, their res stat can stay low but imo just raise it anough than an armor knight doesnt get one rounded and IMO again the main difference between general and greatknight should be general having a decent res stat on top of the already existing difference such as overall higher stat on gnerals and higher mov on great knights

My crazy ideas that I would not recommend is giving generals bows because why not so they can have more weapons than great knights and please give them some Wexp skill if you uses skill because nobody is using more than two weapon ranks unless they’re a prepromote

Oh yeah and permanent 1-2 range on genral if youre even crazier

2 Likes
30

I’ve been brainstorming a change to shields that would play into armors’ hands more than anything else.

Instead of granting a flat Defense boost, shields would grant damage reduction, mostly against physical attacks. They would incur a Speed penalty and there would be restrictions on weapons you can equip alongside them, but that’s not important to this discussion. Shields would top out at 30% reduction outside of armor-exclusive shields, and critical hits bypass shield reduction.

Classes who carry a shield in their aesthetics would get a Shieldbearer class skill, which halves the weight of equipped shields, and also grant a free class-specific shield called [Name]'s Shield. Non-armors get a simple shield with like 10%, min. 1 reduction, whereas armored units get a shield with 30%, min. 2 and a few-armor only shield traits: an immunity to enemy movement tech and halving indirect damage.

Additionally, shields would be the condition for skills like Fighters and Savior, with armored units naturally being treated as shielded for their purpose, either all the time or above an HP threshold.

Better and more accessible damage reduction would make armors less dependent on raw Defense stats and is just healthier with Fire Emblem math than tuning it up even higher. It holds up more effectively against unga bunga caveman smash Atk stats without completely choking out lower damage values. The armor-only shield properties help them in their usual roles too.

1 Like
31

Shields are pretty cool, though I think percentage-based damage reduction might be a bit much. Well, that or I’ve played too much FEH. I think a flat -5 damage, for example, would be better; its easier to calc, and as long as you don’t do something crazy like -20 to all dmg taken, it’ll probably be fine.

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Taking as reference the Armor Knights of FE8.
I gave them 2 more in Spd and from 15 to 25 in growth in their class stats.
And their +1 mov, but without gaining more when promoting to general.
Because they are slow and their defenses are not great, effective weapons are not necessary to finish them.

Barricade: So that they receive reduced damage after the 2nd attack.
This way their speed doesn’t work against them and they can defend against more assaults and tanking.
I know there is Wary Fighter, but I don’t like that skill because Spd becomes less useful. And it makes confrontations much slower, plus it takes away the charm that some Knight could do x2 attacks.
And it also means that using magic is still effective, but with more care when choosing which one to attack.

Full Metal Body: Immunity to Seals Skills.
With this I tried to emulate a bit of that skill I heard from Engage, that they can’t suffer from weapon triangle breakage.
In this way, I consider that using effective weapons becomes a little more profitable, and do not suffer penalties of seals skills, (in my hack there are too many weapons with seal skills) so it could be replaced by other skills. Like Stance or Blow.

In the case of generals, keep Great Shield is maintained and added
Expertise: reduce bonus damage from critical hits by 50%.
And so we have a general, with damage reduction from critical hits, damage reduction after the 2nd hit, a possible parry with Great Shield and counter immunity.

These are the stats of what they would look like when they are generic with 0 points in their stats.
So vary them, they would make them powerful.

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1 Like
33

Solution: High enemy quality

Thanks for coming to my ted talk

8 Likes
34

I would give them 5 movement like other unpromoted infantry classes; upon promotion to General, however, they would not gain any more movement. Promoting them to Great Knight still gets them 6 movement, though.
Reminds me of what I did to Dancers in my first hack; I gave them 6 movement so they don’t fall behind as easily. A tiny increase in movement makes heck of a difference. No wonder everyone loves Boots/Swiftsoles so much.

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My general opinions have been stated several times but in different posts but:

  • high enemy quality that makes defense matter
  • better stats than other footlocked units
  • solid skill to make them one of the most consistent units on your team, for both taking and dealing damage
  • enough speed to not be doubled by everything
  • in terms of skills I gave them -6 damage from ranged attacks, so that archers are mostly incapable of hurting them in a meaningful way (with giving armors +6 defense). And due to their low resistance mages who they are vulnerable to are still capable of dealing with them at range.
  • I also gave them axes
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Honestly, I think that Armor Knights FEEL better as a class if they are mono-weapon. However, you don’t have to make them JUST use Lances. You can make it so that you have multiple weapon variations of Armor Knights like Radiant Dawn or Engage.

That being said, let me share what I did with Armor Knights in my hack:

My hack has class skills. Every class only gets ONE skill, both promoted and un-promoted (And also, every playable character gets a personal skill). So by the endgame, your units will only have 3 skills MAX. 1 personal, 2 from their class.

And this is the skill I gave Armor Knights: Tower Shield. It makes it so they recieve -6 true damage at range. They only recieve full damage at melee. (I will change the skill to -5 damage at a later point)
ROR update1.emulator
[The skill is just renamed here]

Now, why did I do this? It’s sorta to replicate the efect in Echoes where Knights and Barons take half damage from Bows, but extended to all forms of damage.

And if you think about it, this makes sense: Armor Knights are wearing heavy, full plate armor. So any attacks that are projectiles are more likely to bounce off, because they lose momentum in the air. An attack at melee has the full force of the attack being applied to the Knight, and thus, deals more damage (Disclaimer: I am NOT a physicist, but this makes sense in my head. And this is a fantasy game anyway).

And ALSO, this improves the Knight’s perfrmance against mages without the need to increase their resistance. Magic is still GOOD against Armor Knights, but it’s more risky, because you have to sacrifice your range advantage. This makes the only reliable way to one-shot an armor knight being an effective weapon, such as a Hammer. At least in most cases.

Now. What does this achieve? It emphazises the role of the armor knight class as a tank, by making them better at that job: Tanking things. But it’s also a fair addition, because it’s a constant condition. It’s not something that can happen based on RNG, like Pavise (Note that, I have absolutely NO proc skills in my project). Additionally, I also gave Generals Expertise (Reduce damage from critical hits by 50%). Which goes even further to establish these armored classes as tanks.

And of course, making them not super slow and giving them a little bit more skill goes a long way too.

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Also, speaking of Engage… I think Armor Knights could REALLY benefit from the Advance Skill from Emblem Roy.

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However, I don’t know how hard it would be to code this skill. No one has recreated this one yet in GBA.

1 Like
38

Not more movement per se but the ability pivot which helps them get around easier or smite which also helps with the movement of other units while also pushing away enemies. For the speed aspect, you could give them weary fighter to prevent them from being doubled. I think there is a skill that decreases the crit damage from x3 to x2 in febuilder. That could also work as a little counter.

1 Like
39

Yes, that’s Expertise. I’m pretty sure it’s 1.5, tho.

Also, I feel that giving armor knights Wary Fighter doesn’t really work… because there’s still the offchanc that you could double something. If you’re designing armorknights to be the slowest of them all stat-wise, that doesn’t really feel good

1 Like
40

Movement skills can help but they’re very situational and with armor’s 4 move they’re not exactly the king of positioning.