How do you make the gameplay experience stressful and miserable without giving the player a bad time?

Let’s say, hypothetically…

For story purposes, this level has to be an awful experience for everyone involved. A lot of the game has to be pain and suffering. Maybe the Lord sucks and hasn’t grown up yet, maybe the hero is being betrayed, maybe the enemy is strong and the players are outmatched underdogs. Maybe a terrible decision Prince Protagonist made in a cutscene is now forcing a horrible gameplay experience upon you where tough choices must be made. Maybe the hero canonically lost this battle and most of the lives of his people so he could run away and cry about it and do the usual Hero’s Journey™ Dark Night Of The Soul™, “Why do we fall? So we can learn to pick ourselves up!” routine with his girlfriend or mentor or dead relative’s spirit.

But… frustrating the player doesn’t make for the greatest gameplay experience. How many players react to unwinnable events by resetting or burning all their resources instead of letting themselves experience loss? Have you seen those MarkyJoe’s Ragefest videos? Sometimes, they take it so far it just becomes silly. It’s like those Mario Maker Troll Levels that outright laugh at the player.

FE4 and 5 are great but how can it go further? You know, without being awful to play.

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Usually to express your side being pushed back thematically you do objectives like escape.

If you really wanna hammer it in, an easy way is to knock off the crutches of your army. In engage you collect half the rings and once you get use to them BAMP! They get knocked off you in that one escape chapter. You can probably invoke a similar feeling if you take away a crutch unit like a jaegen or something

If you want an unbeatable chapter you should do survives with the expression that the army is just holding ground as best they could until they can’t anymore

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Reading this and DATonDemand’s response, for some reason the first thing that came to my head was the final level of Halo Reach, “Lone Wolf.”

For those who have not played it, the objective of the level just says “Survive.” You are all alone and everyone else has died. You try to fight off as long as you can, but in the end it’s fruitless as you can’t escape the inevitable: You will die, and the game will end.

To tie this back in, I think a very neat scenario where you make something hard but not frustrating would be a level or even perhaps the finally of a hack where you pick your units, or perhaps what is left of them, and you… survive.

The chapter would be intentionally brutally difficult with no way of winning. Your units will die and resetting would just be pointless since the odds are not in your favor. Maybe the units have unique death dialogue for the chapter alone.

When all that is left is your lord, or just whenever and enemy takes him out, he says his final words, the chapter concludes, an epilogue is played, and the game ends…

It’s dark, but I think design like this captures a very particular melancholic feeling that is refreshing and unique. If my hack wasn’t what it was, this is probably how I would end it.

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Well technically, Code of the Black Knights did something like this already for one of its endings. Genealogy of the Holy War might also count as an example, except that happens off screen and technically not playable, unlike my other example.

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Hi. If I can share my opinion here, I think a story can be made very painful and excruciating for the characters without enraging the players by letting the players know early enough that there is no more hope.

I’ve only ever read writing tutorials, so I’m no sure about this, but by informing the players, maybe through enemy scenes and dialogue, that the main characters are doomed no matter what, players will probably not feel angry or betrayed when it finally happens. While the main characters rush to that isolated village thinking they’ll be safe, the next cutscene could be about how the villains now actually occupy that same isolated village looking for them. Now the player knows, and will no longer be surprised when the bad guys reveal their troops in that village, but the main characters will be. Let the pain begin.

If players know beforehand that the villains have an ambush set up, only the main characters will feel betrayed and cry and get angry because they thought they’d be safe, but the player hopefully won’t rage because they already knew it about it. Players might try to find ways out, but it will be out of desperation rather than frustration. Make the players wish they could actually talk directly to the main characters, or alter their fate somehow.

If players knew that the enemy has secretly prepared armorslayers before an attack, this will surprise only the characters when their last knights get absolutely demolished without any effort, but not the players. Keep them checking enemy inventories.

Lastly, to crush the hopes of the characters, to make them suffer, they must not know of what’s coming. But to prevent players from getting mad when it finally happens, I think they must have this information ahead of time. The players must know that the enemy will win no matter what and how, so when things at last go from bad to worse, their reaction would hopefully be less of “WTF IS THIS SHIT!” to be more of “i’m so sorry everyone T_T”.

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Chapter 10 of Dark Amulet, it might not be the only example but it’s what I played fairly recently so that’s what comes to mind for me, it’s an almost perfect example of what you’re looking for. It sells this being a really fucking grueling and exhausting siege which you’re losing, even before the survive timer ticks down, while at the same time not being miserable to play (to me, at least. Another player who has less patience for infinite enemy reinforcements might think it is).

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Part of the issue at hand is that showcasing defeat through gameplay is not the most gameplay/story integrating (nor satisfying) method, as usually, if done poorly, you will be left with either a “That’s bullshit, I was clearly winning there” or a “Why bother if I’m going to lose anyways” outcome for the player.

Now, there are things that you can do for the player to willingly put themselves through unwinnable suffering - at the right price, of course.

1: Victory Beyond Death

If such chapters aren’t the direct conclusion of an arc or a game, an easy choice for it is to have such chapter reward you based on how much you hold out.

If you are aiming towards a full party wipe (whether this is a permanent loss or a “they get captured to be returned later” situation) - that is, a complete and abject loss of resources and investments, at the very least you might get something in exchange for it.

In this way, it makes sense that such a chapter would have a forced turn limit that then allowed you to keep playing with every new turn threshold letting you get something out of it - be it more distance/turns on the following pursuit chapter to allow more chests to be opened, or more reinforcements to block out the enemy’s advance in that pursuit chapter, and such many examples.

2: Unconventional Gameplay for Unconventional Games

Standard games are going to be bound to standard gameplay conventions - character permanence and supports, building and getting attached to an army - where insanity-driven chapters whose objective is to cull the herd are a hard match.

That’s why it only makes sense that for an unconventional type of chapter on a non-isolated manner, it makes sense that you contain it within an unconventional game, which is to say:

  • A less character-driven game, where units are less of a face with words bound to them and more akin to just a different resource.

In this way, if you can hammer through your game that units are entirely replaceable (by making them a resource that you can purchase at a cost) and are just a tool for weapons to be held, facing such a loss (whether it is the loss of an entire group, or singular losses), it can lead to allowing such a chapter to fit well.

  • A game where sacrifices must be made in order to keep the story progressing.

In short, how far you can keep playing is entirely tied to how many allies you have allowed to get killed - which you could picture as a reverse de-recruitment of sorts. You begin the game with a full army and must keep losing and losing units as the game progresses to be left only with a handful of them as the game ends - so in this way, it makes perfect sense to introduce a chapter that will kill a large amount of your units as that is the game’s core mechanic.

  • A game where death is a minor inconvenience.

In opposition to the other two, I want you to consider this as a unique approach to this situation: If dying in the battlefield is irrelevant, there’s no need to pull any punches and make chapters entirely aimed towards making the player sacrifice some characters to win time or push an objective further.

Weaponize “Casual” mode, so to speak. Force the player to slowly wittle down their resources through a chapter taking down enemies that would cause a large loss on your side if not taken care of, but must send someone off to deal with them (and die).

Whether this is done through a narrative excuse or you just make a game like this, either option is serviceable enough.

3: It Must End This Way

Sometimes its just the way to end a story, as all must fall.

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Well, I think, at best when it comes to Fire Emblem only one thing comes to mind.
Reasonably distanced ambush spawns, but instead of like 5 enemies it’s 15. They’d also have to be atleast mid-level quality or slightly better then the on-map enemies, spawn in two turn waves, and are a mixture of weapon types and classes to ensure maximum bogging. Or a crap ton of status staves and siege weapons/tomes.

Granted this is all kind of a moot point since, why in gods green earth would you actively want to make your gameplay less enjoyable.

I get wanting challenge and difficulty, but most people don’t play games to actively get stressed out from them.

Unless they’re a content creator, then they get rage views ala “Getting over it with bennet fody” who, while purposefully designed his game to annoying as hell to play, had a specfic idea in mind for said game.

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Have you ever seen Grave Of The Fireflies by Isao Takahata?

I’m not trying to make this:

Some movies are hard to watch because they suck ass (and shake the camera like they’re mixing a drink) and some are hard to watch because they’re so good at conveying the negative emotion you’re meant to feel.

Not all art has to be beautiful or easy to digest, and games are art.

I get that the Super Mario example you put there was meant to evoke the feeling of frustration, but uh, I still find it oddly funny to have that here in this topic lol.
Wait a minute, if I end up finding it funny despite that being supposed to just be very frustrating, doesn’t that kind of erase the feeling of frustration it was meant to have?

Not really since schadenfreude is a thing.

No but I know of it and what you mean.

This however is much bigger of a thing to try to break down. Which I will do in an edit after I sleep/remember to.

Edit: the best way I can put this is that it is INSANELY difficult to do in gaming due largely to gameplay/storyline seggregation.