Fire Emblem: Maiden of Darkness. Check the OP for updates I do them everytime I achieve now


#509

Honestly I like it. Thracia Fatigue always annoyed me tbqh, because it essentially meant you no longer could use that unit for the following chapter. Which depending on who it is, and the chapter, could screw you. It annoyed me that an option like this(deploying with a stat decrease) wasn’t an option. So I’m glad to see it in.


#510

I’d like to bring up Yeti’s idea of fatigue here, and it comes from a conversation the FEXNA server had about World of Warcraft.

Quick backstory: WoW had a system for EXP where if you played for a long time, you were given an EXP penalty after, say, five back to back days of non-stop playing. This was to give the players who didn’t play much a chance to catch up with the other players.

Problem: Everyone hated it. It felt like a punishment for investing time in the game.
Solution: Keep the exact same system, but flip the numbers. Thus spawned the Well-Rested system.

Yeti’s idea for Fatigue is pretty simple. Don’t penalize units for being in too many chapters, give bonuses to units for not being in many chapters. Maybe for every two chapters a unit isn’t deployed, they get +1 in all stats up to a cap. When you deploy them finally, those stats last until the end of the chapter, at which point they’ve been boosted up enough they can hold their own and maybe get a bunch of levels.

Just a thought. Nobody’s tried it yet, but I personally don’t like the idea of penalizing the player for playing the way they want.


#511

Nice alternative, but I’d need to see it in action before deciding if it’s a good or not.


#512

It’s not really like we can see the alternative in action either though(with FE5 being the only current example, and we can all agree that it was done poorly); the idea of rewarding a player vs punishing one for something that doesn’t really matter. There’s also an innate problem because the units you haven’t been using… are not trained. So, using these untrained units is going to make chapters more difficult, and using the fatigued units will do the same, which feels unfair to the player because they’re literally just playing. However, making the untrained units have a small boost makes trying out these units more enticing and doesn’t make the chapter more difficult.


#513

You also have to ask what your goal is with fatigue.

If your goal is to simply make the player stop using units they like using, then, okay. Fatigue is a great way to do it.

However, based off Onmi’s writeup, it appears his goal is to make the player diversify the army a little more. If you force me to stop using a unit because they suck for a chapter thanks to a number on their screen, I’ll be annoyed, especially if I really like using the unit. However, if you keep other, less-used units competitive, then I always have incentive to try them out. For example, suppose you’re playing FE7 for the first time, and you’re using the following units:

Hector, Serra, Matthew, Dorcas, Bartre, Erk, Lowen, Guy.

Several chapters into the game, you get a cool new unit. Her name is Priscilla. Now, you like Serra, because of course you do. She’s fucking awesome. However, maybe you want to try out Priscilla for a while. You drop Serra for a chapter, and put Priscilla on. She performs quite well! After three or four chapters, Serra starts to fall behind in levels, and let’s say 6 chapters pass or so.

Now, on this chapter, let’s say Chapter 17 or so, you glance at your units. You say, “Man, I liked Serra, but she’s so weak now. Guess I’ll just keep using Priscilla.”

Two chapters later, fatigue kicks in. Priscilla is going to be weak until you ditch your main healer for a chapter. You say to yourself, “Goddamnit, now I have to use someone else.”

Are you more likely to use Serra? No. You’ll probably go for Pent or another equally good candidate. Serra is too weak to be usable. So you pull out Pent, and you’re like “Hey he’s not bad, maybe I’ll use him for a chapter or two!”

Three chapters later, Pent outclasses Priscilla. You say, “Oh well, she’s just not as good as him anymore.”

Eventually, Pent becomes fatigued too, and the process starts all over again.

Now, honestly, Serra is the worst candidate for my example, because Healers don’t benefit much from a bunch of stats like a combat units does. Guy<Raven or especially Lowen<Sain/Kent would be a better comparison, but hopefully you get my point.

Had Serra instead just kept competitive by getting a bonus every chapter or two, you’d always be able to at least say “Hey, she’s not worthless, maybe I’ll try her out for a chapter or two and powerlevel her since Prissy isn’t getting much EXP from enemies. She has +3 in all stats for this one chapter, so she isn’t woefully underpowered!”

In Fire Emblem, if a unit sits out for a few chapters, they’re basically fodder for the rest of the game. Think of how FE9 and 10 solved this with BEXP. By weighting the BEXP for lower leveled units, they allow you to try out different units in your army that you normally wouldn’t. By giving less BEXP for higher leveled units, they forced the player to say, “Well, Oscar is already really good, so I might as well level up Mist a bit. Having a second healer on this chapter might prove useful.”

It’s the same principle as BEXP, in that the idea isn’t “Punish the player for playing how they like” but instead “Reward them for trying different units out.”


#514

Although you have to consider the repercussions of using a bonus unit, too. In a game like Fire Emblem, this penalizing and rewarding just swaps when a character is less usable because it isn’t time-framed or modifiable by the player. eg) fatigue level met -> next chapter weaker or using a boosted unit -> losing that boost for the next chapter. The boosts work to disincentivize using units in the same vein as fatigue, especially when all terms are equal (1/4 penalty fatigue vs 1/4 boost well-rested).

TBH I think the Bexp option is probably the most well thought out option so far that doesn’t limit player choice. While I’m torn on forcing a drawback for low manning (simply because I can’t decide for others how they enjoy a game) it has always struck me as strange in a war and tactics game like this to say, solo with Seth.


#515

I personally like fatigue, especially in this fashion because it allows me the fun I had with FE5 fatigue without FE5 fatigue’s faults. Besides, it’s completely optional, don’t like it, don’t activate it.


#516

Um. What? How is fatigue optional?


#517

Its optional in normal mode, forced in hard mode


#518

I mean hey, you could have my version of fatigue for easy, the Onmi version for hard, fuck around with them, see what people like.

I kinda wanna try that now myself. Hmm.


#519

People getting tired of fighting too much makes more sense than people becoming stronger by not fighting at all. Your version is better game design but it doesnt really make sense to me


#520

It’s a well rested bonus. Maybe they do some light sparring during their downtime. Plenty of narrative room.


#521

Maybe he can add the stat bonuses from fe12; but the less a character is used, the more bonuses they get


#522

I’m not implementing your Fatigue Klok.


#523

Do you at least acknowledge the potential problems with fatigue


#524

Yes I do.


#525

Somehow I don’t think he’d have put that massive wall of text up a few posts ago if he hadn’t


#526

It was more because his response was extremely terse.


#527

Had Klok actually read Onmi’s post where he clearly said it was optional, instead of just assuming it wasn’t like he clearly did when he quoted my point about it being so, I would call foul on Onmi here, but that’s not what happened.


#528

OG FE6 is 31 chapters including Gaidens. MoD is going to be 44. That’s like, a lot. When I played FE6 I really only used one party, and I’m pretty sure I got most or all of them to 20/20. Given that the level cap won’t be increased and that growths on most units are increased, I don’t really think a large portion of your units being too weak to deploy will really be a problem, especially if the people working on the game paces levels right, which I can’t imagine they won’t. I’m sure it will work out.