FEE3 2023 Discussion and Thoughts

Hello all! Now that FEE3 2023 has been over for some time, it’s time for the annual postmortem thread. Feel free to share any thoughts you have on this year’s event as long as they are civil and respectful.

I’ll start off with my perspective as the organizer. Overall the event ran quite smoothly and most headache was simply the natural result of managing an event with many submissions. I have some minor potential organizational changes in mind that may help going into next year’s FEE3.

  1. Require game footage in the video submission.
  2. Clarify that submitted videos must not be deleted by the submitter until their video airs, as organizers don’t have dedicated storage for videos and they take up significant disk space.
  3. Disallow moving and excessively large overlays. The former is hard on the eyes and the latter detracts from the video quality.
  4. Make video quality requirements stricter, especially regarding audio balance. Possibly minimum video length as well. I am torn on whether this one needs a formal rule; usually when I suggested to people that they re-record in cases where audio was too difficult to hear over game sounds, they did so and it improved the video quality.
  5. Clarify that the organizational staff has the right to bar submissions at their discretion or ask submissions be edited in case a submission hits an edge case that is not covered in the rules. I want to emphasize that this years submissions in no way prompted this, and that zero submissions would have been rejected due to this. Rather this is a suggestion to future-proof the event.

With that out of the way, I’d also like to thank everyone who submitted videos and who tuned in to watch. I also want to give a shoutout to the volunteers who helped make this event run as smoothly as it did. Though I’ve been the public face of the FEE3, I cannot overstate how important the below people were in helping organize it.

Many people helped review videos, checking for quality issues and making sure they fit within FEE3 guidelines: Rivian, Roze, Loog, Sphealnuke, Parrhesia, DrGreen3339, and Merpin.
Levin created the thumbnail template which you see in every video, and he also made many thumbnails with it. Roze and MegaCowsamMan contributed many thumbnails using this template as well.
Pandan, Relic, WarPath, and FEU staff all helped me out behind the scenes, giving me insight as to how the event was run in previous years and how I would best go about handling various things.
We also had a lot of extra exposure thanks to Parrhesia making a SerenesForest announcement, Darrman posting about it on romhacking.net, r/fireemblem staff pinning the FEE3 thread, and really all of you who recommended people give FEE3 videos a watch. Also TDAWS keeping up tradition by writing up a blurb for each FEE3 entry and creating this viewing guide doubtlessly helps people catch up on the event afterwards and find projects that suit their interests.

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I’m just gonna give an advice, you should delimit how long the video presentations should be. I always got annoyed by overly long videos that barely say anything about the hack. Maybe keep the margin below 10 minutes or even below 8. It will be a better viewer experience overall!

But that’s my two cents.

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Thanks for facilitating this year, bpat. 2023 ran smoothly (no notable issues) and it is in large part to you.

^^ all fair, I agree with these for 2024.

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I honestly think this year was the best FEE3 ever. Encouraging people to make shorter videos really helps make it much easier to watch them all, and I felt the quality of the videos was higher than past years as well. I do think there should be a minimum audio level requirement. Some videos had very poor audio, and I just couldn’t watch them because I could barely understand what was being said or it was just a bother to listen to, but I don’t think a minimum video length is necessary.

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Completely agree. I feel like if its 10 or below, i was a lot more likely to click on it. Its tough finding time to watch an hour long video. Even if the game looked really cool, its tough stayijg interested. But thats just me at least

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I made my video in a yt short format this year, but because nobody else did and there had been no prior discussion, we agreed to add to the video to make it 61 seconds so it would not be treated as a yt short.

Should youtube shorts be an acceptable format for fee3 video submissions?

  • Yes
  • No

0 voters

Some people might not like portrait format videos. On the other hand, the mobile demographic appreciates this sort of format for trailers. Someone made a tiktok for pokemblem recently that got 140k views, so I believe there’s potential here.

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I’m an advocate for shorter videos and think scaling down to a maximum of 45 minutes, if not 30, would be a good decision. But I do want to give a special shoutout to Lowres’ speedrun showcases, which did a fantastic job of showcasing the different tools that each game gave the player. Might not be equally suitable for all games – to put myself in the firing line, a speedrun of DoW or Do5 would be interesting but wouldn’t showcase anything particularly novel about either game, compared to how the CC run hinged on things unique to CC – but it was a really good way to succinctly get a grasp for the feel of a game.

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I’ve been helping out with FEE3 in some capacity basically since I became comfortable in the community around 2021, though this year my contribution was notably smaller than usual, and this discussion happens every year, without fail. I’m gonna make the same points this year, because my opinion has not changed even as trailers have become more and more popular.

Trailers are easier to consume and have a higher ceiling for quality / attention-grabbing-ness, without a doubt. This isn’t really something that I think is going to be in contention - watching a 2 or 3 minute video is much easier than watching a 20 or 30 minute video, and it is easier to limit those videos to being just a highlight reel if

IF

you know what you’re doing, or have additional resources.

Hiding the rest under here so this message isn't so fuck off long

In the past, this topic comes up alongside sort of unrelated questions of “who is FEE3’s audience intended to be” and “what is the stated goal,” and I think I’m probably just not going to answer those right now - not with intent, at least, and certainly not in this post. Instead, I want to lead with a lot of things that get kind of bulldozed during these discussions.

The first is that trailer quality is actually extremely variable. A bad trailer is rough; it is a skillset that is entirely different from, even at points completely unrelated to, the romhacking process. The people who are making hacks are not necessarily also skilled video editors. Okay; the same can be said for playthroughs, as not all hackers are charismatic LPers, and we resolve this with volunteer work; surely, this is a transitive concept, right?

I don’t believe so. The time commitment, and amount of effort, behind most playthroughs for a volunteer is dramatically lower. As somebody who has done several volunteer LPs, and have at times been told I do a decent job of it, the bulk of the work is doing a single dry run so I know what I’m doing and then otherwise coordinating with anyone else involved in that LP, be that the dev or a co-commentator. This makes it extremely easy to volunteer for, allowing for a show that accepts a very wide pool of applicants and can still run extremely smoothly. A trailer is way more effort, way more workload, and waaay more coordination; it’s also something that would be inaccessible to more people, necessitating either of (or both of) a smaller pool of showcases that make it to the event or a substantially more involved process for the event organizers and those who volunteer to participate.

If these trailers are half-assed, they aren’t going to be de facto better than a half-assed gameplay showcase, and while I obviously will not name names, it’s sort of evident if you watch all of FEE3 that some showcases are lower quality, lower effort, or lower impact - both to a degree where in any body of work, something has to be the “worst one” (I think that each year we have fewer and fewer, besides), and just because some people are simply not as good at selling their project, or their projects are just not as easy to sell through the medium of a youtube video.

The other thing is that most of the trailers that people point to as proof of how well the trailer concept works are the trailers that go significantly above and beyond what the other trailers are offering. This is in part because three+ weeks of trailers for various FE8 hacks, using mostly the same set of vanilla and repo assets, would reveal pretty quickly that it can actually be quite difficult to showcase a romhack in a way that makes it really stand out from the pack, especially so without the use of some additional assets. Voice acting, bespoke artwork, music, or even just experience in video editing and access to better software can dramatically affect how well a trailer lands, and I don’t know if it’s being properly understood just how many people a trailer mandate would exclude from the event.

There’s also the question of LTCs, which also popped off this year and were very well received; again, these are much more limited. You need somebody who actually knows how to LTC, is willing to do an LTC for your project, has time to chart and record one, and still find time to, in the process, show off what makes the game cool. I enjoyed this kind of showcase quite a bit, as much as I’m not really interested in the LTC scene generally, and while I think these are less severe restrictions than you see with trailers, it is important to note that any push towards quality control of the event is also a push towards making that event higher effort.

I’ll take now to point out, maybe snarkily, that the people making this push are also almost never the people who actually participate in helping run the event, so take that how you will.

The FE hacking scene has been around for a while, but in terms of this particular era of post-builder hacking renaissance, quite young overall, and certainly smaller than many other scenes with similar events. As such, FEE3 has actually had to grow and evolve extremely quickly, far more quickly I think than people have given it credit for - just a couple years prior, the event was so taxing to run that it nearly burnt some people out on the community at large, and there was constantly some kind of conflict or controversy for the organizers to have to help resolve.

Much of the event’s current state is a hedge against this; the number of casual consumers of this event has dramatically outstripped the number of users willing to help run it, making it very difficult to grow in tandem alongside the audience without putting more and more stress onto the already small crew running things.

We don’t have a consistent FEE3 team who runs these things; we’re just hackers who want to help showcase what people in the community are doing. I am not in FEU to do volunteer work for FEE3. Nobody is. Until we either get people who are solely interested in organizing this side of the scene with a substantial time investment on their part, or we get more of the kind of people who have helped run this event in the past, where they’re only helping out on the side or in short bursts, it’s going to be difficult to justify the level of major structural changes that tend to get proposed around this time of year.

I also feel the need to point out that we’ve had gameplay showcases get a ton of views in the past. I’m not going to pretend trailers aren’t objectively more popular - historically, most of the very high view videos from each event are shorter, or have some kind of external hype pushing them up in views, or both.

Cases like the recent Cerberus trailer are really cool and fun surprises, and also very rare; the vast majority of popular showcases are popular because they hook into an existing fandom (see the consistent popularity of vanilla-adjacent hacks, or external fandom like the holoemblem trailer or pokemblem). That’s not to take away from the quality of these hacks, but there are certainly hacks that are similarly impressive that struggle to reach the same heights of popularity as something with a few recognizable characters or a funky cross-fandom hook, or for plain old things like “having cool portraits.”

Many of these showcases, mind you, are LPs.

I remember a while back, there was a big pushback against AAA gaming showcases becoming more and more trailer heavy, with gameplay demos becoming less and less common ways of showcasing a new game. I am positive that, if the event switched to a fully trailer-oriented format, we would be seeing a new cast of people offering their thoughts on how trailers don’t give them enough tangible information about a hack’s gameplay to go off of, and how they wish we’d got back to the old format where the projects get more of a deep dive.

The people saying we should switch fully to trailers are often people who are just… not watching FEE3 in the first place? I’m not sure it’s correct to cater the event towards the people who feel the event is currently not for them, rather than honing it in on the current audience and allowing the event to grow somewhat naturally as projects being higher profile and the scene collects more buzz.

All of this said; if you are interested in the trailer showcases enough to want to see more, I encourage you; go learn to do video editing, then next year demonstrate that prowess and volunteer to help people make a few. If we do, eventually, get to the point that the community actually has this roster of people who we can depend on actually showing up* to do higher effort work for the event, then sure; I would obviously have 0 qualms with scaling the event up, getting more ambitious with how the projects are showcased, and trying to cater the event towards overall higher quality. Until such a time as it’s provably feasible to commit to these changes and still have the event actually happen, and it’s also provably something that improves the event and doesn’t simply make it different, I’m going to remain unconvinced, as I have been since I first volunteered back in 2021.

*we’ve had people offer in the past to step up and do significant chunks of workload on this front in the past, but to my knowledge they have not yet actually become involved in helping run the event. Staking the entire event on the contributions of people who we can’t trust to actually be present when the event begins is… potentially irresponsible? Disaster prone? A bad idea. This is why, again, I would advise people stepping up and contributing as volunteers if they’re passionate about the event undergoing these changes.

On an unrelated note to that entire thing; I liked this year’s FEE3 quite a bit. From a behind the scenes standpoint, it was almost seamless, even moreso than an already silky smooth 2022 FEE3. In many regards, the current format allowed the event to more or less run itself, with a deep pool of prior experience for new organizers to draw from and an extremely streamlined and comfy content creation pipeline.

I agree with all 5 points made by bpat, as well, and despite that whole rant hiding a bit above this, I’d also agree with Parrhesia’s take that bringing the time limit down to something closer to 30 or 45 minutes would be good; while this does make some hacks much harder to showcase (a project as complex as Daughters of Bragheduun was a struggle to fit even half the map into an hour’s time, for instance), I think overall it will encourage snappier, denser, more informative LPs in the future.

A lot of the showcases were really surprising and high quality, and it’s always nice to see familiar projects again. I particularly enjoy the discussion these videos can foster - this last year has seen a pretty substantial rise in the popularity of these sort of “romhack-general-chat” discord channels/servers, and it was easier than ever to feel the ripple effect of a new FEE3 showcase when you’d see people playing the games being shown off in the days following an upload. I mentioned it earlier, but Cerberus was a particular standout for me, as it’s very rare for projects to spring fully formed from the ether like this with while also having that level of care put into their presentation.

On a personal level, I was a little bummed that I didn’t get to volunteer for more projects this year - I think that having a more obvious or readily available list of volunteer LPers next year would be really nice, bc I always like getting to talk to devs I wouldn’t usually get to talk to, finding out about their hacks, and helping them show it off as best I can. It worked out nicely, at least, with how busy this year has been for me already, but nonetheless I ended up primarily doing showcases for people I already knew, which to me lost a bit of the fun I’d had with previous years.

I’m hoping I can be more present for next year’s FEE3, and I wanna give a huge shout-out to bpat for being very communicative throughout each step of the event. To what small capacity I was able to contribute this year, he consistently made it easier and more stress free, and from what I saw elsewhere, I believe this to have been generally the case across the board. Thanks, boat! :sailboat:

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my POV is unchanged that the event is “by the community, for the community”. Forcing any one format over the other will inherently limit overall participation, which is worse for the community as a whole. Quality is nebulous and subjective.

Trailers were made this year because people wanted to make trailers – not a mandate. It’s up to creators to figure out how they want to showcase their work.

45 mins is the absolute minimum I’d go for length, I recall previous years that anything w/ co-comms was well-received, and those tend to be longer due to the banter between the commentators.

It’s up to the person making their project to have a barometer for quality IMO beyond a few parameters like what bpat notes in their change recs for 2024.

Big agree the event was well-run. It certainly appeared more effortless than any recent years.

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I don’t think FEE3 submissions allowing YouTube Shorts is a good idea, for YouTube-related reasons

Shorts are not served to users the same way as normal videos are: they don’t show up in normal video feeds, there’s a shelf on the homepage and the subscriptions page with shorts on it separate from videos. Most people who use YouTube to watch videos ignore the shorts shelf. If an FEE3 video is going to be served to people who subscribe to the Fire Emblem Universe YouTube channel, having it be a short is going to have a significant negative impact on the number of people who see it. The trick to getting shorts to be shown to people is to specifically mark them to not be served to subscribers, so that they only get served to people who are not subscribed and do watch shorts; I would argue that having to not serve an FEE3 entry to people who subscribed to the channel to get served FEE3 entries for anyone to even see it is antithetical to FEE3 and serving it to subscribers would be actively detrimental to the entry submitted as a short which would be unfair to that submission.

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FEE3 shorts are a decent idea as a subcategory served after the event, in the case that a submitter wanted to do highlight reels/clips/post-mortem. A lot of people don’t bother watching fee3 as the videos come out, so having shorts as submitted by either the original submitter or a particularly zealous clipper as overviews would help maybe. This would obviously skew metrics to whatever dropped a short, but it’s extra effort for the submittet and metrics aren’t necessarily important anyway, so.

Oh yeah, did we ever iron out the rules regarding edge cases like Curse of Lagdou/Princess’s Lament?

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Glad I can take the time to reflect on my first time volunteering for FEE3 once again. I was pretty excited to share my thoughts after the event given my oddball approach to the hacks I showcased, so I couldn’t quite wait for the postmortem thread to be created and I went ahead and posted some of my thoughts at the tail end of the viewing guide. But the long and short of it is I’m super happy with my contributions this year and how well they’ve been received, and time permitting I’d love to do it again next year.

Given that my LTC showcases fall in between a trailer and a let’s play when it comes to video length, I’d like to respond to the video length argument that seems to pop up so frequently with FEE3. I’m pretty happy that this year had many more trailers than long showcases, I can never bring myself to actually sit all the way through one of those, but I have no strong opinions on a maximum video length rule.

That said, I’ve been the kind of person that Xil talked about a bit ago, someone who complains about FEE3 video lengths but never has anything else to contribute, so this year one of my motivations for getting involved was to put my money where my mouth is and make the kind of FEE3 video that I would want to see.

As others have highlighted, the process was incredibly smooth and I had a lot of fun! The LTC community is quite small and the number of LTCers interested in hacks even smaller, so there’s no guarantee you’ll be seeing a new face in this video format next year. So with that said, I encourage anyone who wants to make next year’s FEE3 a little flashier to follow in my footsteps and be the change they want to see. It doesn’t have to be an LTC, as others have mentioned not all hacks are suited to that format, but the videos in question aren’t going to magically become better unless there are volunteers willing to put in that extra effort. That said, if it is an LTC I’m more than willing to help someone out in that category so feel free to ping me in the feu discord or wherever I happen to be roaming around.

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Dude I said 8 to 10 min video, you did a complete essay on why trailers are hard to make and such. I never said “Do trailers lmao”.

Just speaking for myself. I clicked on every video but longer ones caused me to fall off and just read the post on this site instead.

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And that’s awesome :sunglasses: the LTC showcases were a consistent highlight, and a very fun way to spice up the FEE3 formula, which is exactly why I think more people should get involved with the event. Getting new people into the event will help introduce new ideas, and eventually those ideas will catch on.

You are not the first person in the 3 years I’ve been involved in FEE3 to have this idea, hence my speaking to previous points that have arisen in this conversation by other people over that span of time. The vast majority of it was not responding to you, yours was just the first post to bring it up.

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Most of the longer showcases feel more like a gameplay commentary than an actual feature showcase. Is not bad perse but feels wrong. So I share your point of view there, the FEU post were a better way to know mote about the projects themselves than their video showcases.

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Y’know, fair enough.

This is probably the most easily watchable FEE3, being the first year where there were more trailers than let’s play showcases. As part of the quality review team that’s definitely appreciated!

I assume that with the success of high quality trailers such as Cerberus this year as well as the amount of people voicing their disinterest in longer videos, it’s pretty likely this trend will continue regardless of if FEE3 pushes down length limits.

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I largely agree with Pandan on this one, they summarized it well in their “by the community for the community” phrase. Gatekeeping the event behind the ability to make 8-10 minute trailers goes against a lot of what I feel this community has been standing for, at least during the time I have been around for.

We have FEbuilder, an easily accessible tool for new romhackers to keep the barrier of entry low

We have a graphics repository as to keep the barrier of making your hack look and sound good low

We have community threads allowing anyone to comment to allow an open table for discussion towards any topic

Looking to just put limits on any of these things would be seen as insane by most of the people here in all likelihood, so why is this such a sticking point for fee3? Should we stop short hacks from being made because some people don’t like them?
This is a community event, let’s keep the barrier as low as possible without sacrificing a bare minimum amount of integrity. I know the current system in place has benefited me, my hardware’s not good enough to even make something better than a windows movie maker trailer, not exactly something that catches eyes. It was much easier to work with an LPer and just have fun with a chapter.

It was a great year for FEE3 folks, I loved a lot of the stuff being shown off!

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For all that 1 hour LPs are too much for me to watch, 1 hour also doesn’t feel like enough show off a game sometimes. Making a trailer for my project was also surprisingly difficult, as Xili said, it’s a skillset orthogonal to a lot of other rom hacking things and it’s the sort of creative muscle I haven’t flexed in a long time. I still personally prefer trailers but I wouldn’t ask the people contributing to be forced into a specific format nor for the maximum time limit to be reduced.

Anyway, good job, FEE3 2023 team, things really did go impressively smoothly from my sort of strange vantage point.

Once again, just like last year, I swear I had some more comments to say but I’ve completely forgotten them by the time the post mortem came around. I really should write this down somewhere next year…

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