[FE8][Complete] Fire Emblem: The Four Kings (4/11/24 Update: Now With Weapon Reversal!)

I’m not quite sure when I’ll actually get to making these trial maps, likely sometime by the end of the summer

Gee, autumn lookin’ rather hot this year.

I’m glad for this. The campaign was a lot of fun, I’ll be sure to check the trial maps as well.

Also, I couldn't help but notice that...

Jeremy is in the hub. That’s not one of the concepts you had shared. I’d actually been toying with an idea for a couple of days, wondering if it was too pretentious to share it with you. Eh, what the heck, here goes:

My idea was for a Jeremy trial map that takes place after the war. Jeremy exposes Gideon’s crimes and, together with Sarah, goes to apprehend him, but Gideon rallies an army of mercenaries to protect himself. Maybe bamboozles Bradley and Shaun into joining him (that’s one of his best talents, after all), and they have to be talked to. I wonder if your idea for Jeremy is something like that or a completely different scenario.

Either way, looking forward to all of these! I’ll be sure to share my thoughts on this map when I get around to playing it.

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Heh, that’s almost exactly what I have planned for Jeremy’s trial map. Jeremy and Sarah, with the help of Bradley and Shaun, investigate the Askian black market and have to face down Gideon.

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Updated the patch link in the main thread, since I just finished making the second trial map! This one takes place before the start of the game and focuses on Harriet. After Terry’s crew raided one of her ships, she’s out for bloody revenge, and finds herself attacking a pirate base! Regis also drunkenly fumbled his way onto the scene here. Enjoy!

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I found a nice cheese strat on chapter 9.
You can block the general by keeping unit on their spawning point.
This remove the time limit.

I love how most units can’t survive more than 2 hits this makes the hack very player phase oriented.

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It might have taken me a week, but I finished the third trial map, Open Fire! This one focuses on Jack and Ian defending the Behanzin capital from Rhiner’s invasion. It probably took so long to make because it’s a defend map and I hate defend maps and making it was draining and annoying and stupid and I’m mad about it. But hey it’s done now, the patch link in the main post is updated, blah blah blah enjoy!
Jack trial map ending
This patch also includes a few other minor fixes and stuff, including Gamma’s AI fix! This should make enemies move way faster, which I know was a nuisance in some of the maps that were larger or had a lot of enemies.

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Updated the patch link to fix a bug in chapter 8. I swapped a few unit locations around, but forgot to update the events for opening the prison cells. This is now fixed.

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Here’s another update, this time containing Trial Map 4: On the Home Front! This one focuses on Alicia, Elias, and Tim (remember that generic dude in chapter 4 next to Max? Yeah that guy) defending their village in the Askian mountains from a group of rebels. Not only that, but Tim now appears in chapter 4! He’s still the same soldier standing next to Max, but he’ll turn into a green unit when you recruit Max, and he’ll have some extra dialogue if he’s alive when you complete the chapter. Also Tim has Galeforce. Enjoy!
Trial map Tim

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Updated the patch link with today’s new release, containing Terry’s trial map, Isle of Terror! Terry and his crew explore a strange island in southern Behanzin in search of treasure, but they instead find ruins full of constructs! This patch also adds two new supports to the game, Chase/Shaun (written by BChezza) and Shelby/Ron (written by Sphealnuke). Enjoy!
image

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Updated the patch link with trial map number 6, The Warrior’s Path! This trial map takes place during the main story, specifically during chapter 18. While Walter’s army marches through the Lupus Mountains, Ladon takes his crew back through the vast Behanzin desert, and runs into some rebel soldiers along the way. So you get to see what Ladon was doing during chapter 18, and play as him and his men! Enjoy!
Ladon trial map
Also, this isn’t related to the trial maps or anything, but I recently got some artwork commissioned by @racecarart on twitter. It’s the four main characters, and I plan on using her art for my FEE3 trailer. Check her out, she does great work!

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Hey Krash,

I was able to give 4 Kings a try over the weekend. I played the first 2 chapters and stopped because I want to share some feedback.

Overall, I found that the game was a bit too inflexible and punishing for my taste. In the first two chapters, I felt like there was a specific way I needed to position my units to win, and an attempt to deviate from this intention would be met with a game over. For example, it’s pretty clear that you’re supposed to take Lionel and his sword-effective sabre, wait on the forest to the left, and one shot the two mercs on EP, while using Zach and Walter to lure in the other enemies they specifically can handle. The first few times I played, I tried moving units in other formations, but did not find success. Maybe I am bad or not thinking hard enough, but it felt off to me that I essentially had to play in a very specific way to not lose.

Similarly, the low HP and high damage output made it so that most of my units were getting two shot. Even with WTA, units were facing coinflip hit rates that would put them in danger if they connected. While I am a fan of scary, hard-hitting enemies, the HP values being in line with vanilla made me feel like I needed to wait at the end of ranges to pull one enemy at a time, since taking on two meant I had a decent chance of dying, even with the advantage.

I do think the game could be more accessible if you beefed up player HP so that they can take 3 hits on average instead of two. This would open up creativity in strategy and encourage the player to attack on player phase more since they could afford to take a counter. I felt compelled to take advantage of stationary enemies and peel them one by one, while healing from near death to full each time I got hit. Additionally, I would improve weapon hit rates (or increase the impact of the triangle) so that the player can plan more reliably without having major swings because of the hit rates and getting into near death after a single encounter.

Narratively, I had a few issues with the portrayal of Walter and Ava. In a hack that I presume is intended to be at least somewhat serious, I thought it was odd how the first chapter focuses on Walter and Lionel killing their own people, seemingly with little remorse or consequence (“This is a monarchy, get used to it”). While I have only played through Ch2, this event, which I would assume would be a big deal or a source of outcry, is met with more of a shrug. Lionel chides Walter, but nothing seems to really come of it, nor is it depicted as anything serious or unusual.

In a comedic hack, I would probably brush it off and chalk it up to the absurdity of the tone. Given that the project seems to take itself seriously, I want to call that out as it felt a bit off to me. I would’ve either made the situation more dire in some way, or changed it to be bandits or a group that the player can beat up with less remorse. Maybe because I wrote a hack about a group being oppressed by their government, I felt like I was playing as a villain by putting them down without much remorse.

My other issue narratively is with regards to Ava. I found it off putting that the first female character featured in the hack is basically only characterized by her looks. I also dislike that she gets kidnapped by Walter and called a ‘pet’ by Lionel, while everyone else comments on how she is “beautiful”. Some of the implications of a woman being captured by a group of men who are talking about when they can let her out to use the bathroom was off-putting, and I did not want to continue playing after that. It didn’t sit right with me, so I thought I would share that.

I may chalk this all up as 4 Kings is not a game that gels with my Fire Emblem sensibilities, and does things in ways that I don’t find enjoyable. It’s clear there was effort put in and the concepts for the PRFs and their uses are novel.

Playing 4 Kings reminds me of playing challenges in old Tony Hawk games where I’d need to try over and over again until I won, and while I’m cool with that in the context of that series, it felt a bit too limiting in an FE context to play that way. Again, perhaps I am just not playing up to the difficulty that’s intended, or not getting into the gameplay concept you’ve laid out, and would’ve preferred something a bit easier (if there was an option to scale down). I know I am being nitpicky but wanted to share my experience so far and am curious if others have had similar experiences.

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Thanks for the feedback. First thing about the Ava scene, I actually changed that the other day because someone else had the same issue, and I felt like a terrible person, so I don’t blame you for not wanting to play the hack anymore because of that.

As for chapter 1’s story, I think it should be noted that Walter is the one who doesn’t really care. Lionel has a lot more concern for the obvious issue of killing his own people, and it does get to him in the next few chapters which you probably aren’t going to play now.

For gameplay, I’m not really sure what to say. I do have parts of maps with intended solutions (like the first turn of chapter 1 with Lionel), though those are usually for the purpose of showing off something a character can do, like a personal weapon or their class. But I also don’t think my chapters are as rigid as you say they are. But I don’t really know how I’m supposed to prove that either. I guess I can at least say that my design mentality was meant to be pretty close to FE6 hard mode, with Zachary being the Marcus stand-in. I worry that flatly increasing everybody’s HP will just make the game too easy. Whatever I do, the game will either be too easy or too hard and it’ll be bad.

For hit rates, I personally just don’t see what the issue is, especially in the first two chapters. Lionel, Zachary, and Shaun all have pretty high hit assuming the enemy isn’t on a forest or something, and Bradley’s Saunion is accurate too. Walter is probably the one who has the worst time in earlygame thanks to the lack of lance enemies though. But there are ways to boost hit rates that you’re just way too early on to have yet, like supports. And once you hit chapter 5, you can start buying better weapons and secret books, which are very cheap in this game. Increasing the weapon triangle hit bonus seems like a good idea though, maybe up to 25 hit. But in general, I’m wary of this criticism when you’ve only played the first 2 chapters.

I think what you said about your FE sensibilities is probably accurate. Just looking at the design mentalities of our hacks, it’s clear that we have vastly different ideas about game design. I had similar feelings when I played Vision Quest too (massive amounts of units, tiny maps, etc), and I chalked it up to the same thing, my sensibilities are different from yours. But I also feel bad about just brushing what you said away with such an excuse.

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Don’t feel terrible about it, please. Everyone is going to have a different interpretation and some may be worse than others.

Good to hear on Lionel, that makes sense. It seems to get brushed aside, and the switch to bandits in ch2 made it seem like it was a one-off that would not be revisited. My fault for sharing feedback after only 2 chapters and not going through and reading more.

I think offering alternative difficulty modes could help with accessibility then, even if there is one true, ‘intended’ mode. I don’t recall FE6 early game being quite as punishing with damage, but it’s been a while since I’ve played it. Perhaps I wasn’t using Zach well enough here.

My point is that because you can’t get hit more than once without dying, hit rates being in the coin flip range make it hard to reliably plan, leaving success up to chance in some circumstances. The margin for error is a bit too low for my taste, personally. I felt like there were a few cases where I was relying on dodging 47s to not die, or relying on hitting a sub-80 to kill a key enemy.

How come the player need to rely on secret books to improve their hit rates? I think an easier solution would be to buff item hit rates instead. For sure, my sample size is small and I’m sharing my impression based on that.

For sure, I’m not saying “you must change this!!!” but sharing my thoughts after playing the first few chapters.

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So the buyable secret books thing sorta spawned as a “what if I made these things useful?” scenario. That’s not to say I sandbagged weapon hit rates (most of them are vanilla FE8 hit rates, with some getting small increases), but I thought that making secret books (and also goddess icons) buyable in every shop for cheap might make money management more interesting. Does the player buy some shiny new weapons, or increase reliability on their existing weapons? But again, I also think that hit rates even with no secret books are already fine as is. I think I will try a doubled weapon triangle and see how that works, but I really don’t feel the need to increase the accuracy of everything when I think it’s already fine, and there are already methods to boost hit rates in game with books, supports, and simply buying more accurate weapons.

Also I’m adamant about not having multiple difficulties, that’s something I’m not budging on. I don’t want to make lesser versions of the game. The game is supposed to be relatively challenging.

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Yeah, I get that for sure - I’m not sure how your game’s economy works. If the player has enough cash, I could see it being an interesting choice over time.

Even if the hit rates are where they are in vanilla, the enemies in 4 Kings are seemingly faster, so weapons feel like they have less hit overall. Triangle would be a pretty quick thing to test if you’re interested, yeah, but you know the game and how it scales best.

As for multiple difficulties, I think saying that they would be “lesser” versions of the game is misguided - it’s fine to have a challenging experience, but multiple difficulties can also be a way to make the gameplay, story, and ideas more accessible to people who aren’t up to it.

Especially if your intended difficulty is using the hardest setting (and you make it clear this is the mode it was balanced around), easier difficulties could be offered by scaling down without needing to test much. This will allow you to open things up to a broader audience without detracting from the core experience/goals of the project.

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I barely touched enemy speed at all. For my enemies, I mostly gave them all flat increases to strength and skill, with a few minor nerfs to defense on some classes like cavalier and wyvern. But for stuff like the chapter 1 and 2 enemies, I don’t think I touched speed on those classes at all except for mage. So I don’t really know what to do about this.

I guess I can try just having easy and normal modes with super big enemy level differences. But I’m definitely going to label them as modes that are not intended for play. I just worry about towing the line between making something other people enjoy and making something I enjoy. I don’t know which one is more important.

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Huh that’s interesting. I would’ve guessed enemies are faster because the hit rates felt less reliable than in vanilla.

It’s up to you - you shouldn’t do it if you don’t want to or disagree with it. It’s your game, hobby, and time. I think multiple modes help ensure that people can find a difficulty that bests suits them, while not potentially alienating any particular audience.

I’d have to see how you did the enemy autoleveling, but if you used chapter autolevels for hard mode, you can scale that down for normal and easy without having to touch much else. If the stat values are flat (ie the bases of the enemies are as they appear in builder without autolevels), you’ll need to manually reduce the enemy levels most likely (but I am not an expert on this.)

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I basically started with increases to class bases and then had HM autolevels for every chapter, starting at +1 and slowly increasing throughout the game until they hit +5 in the lategame. I just quickly edited the chapters to have scaling for each difficulty (normal is -5 compared to hard, and easy is -10 compared to hard), and put the difficulty selection back in, so hopefully that helps. This does mean that enemies are going to be on class base stats for a long time in the lower difficulties, so I guess this won’t really change the first few maps… But I really didn’t try to make them super difficult. I’ve had a couple people fail chapter 1 multiple times and I’m incredibly confused, since now I feel like I’m doing something wrong with my level design.

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Got it - sounds like scaling down wouldn’t be hard then.

Yeah I basically kept easy mode enemies at class bases for a long time. I presume players playing on easy mode want to either mess around or only experience the story without needing to work too hard for it.

I don’t think it’s so much that you’re doing anything ‘wrong’ with level design. I think it comes down to player expectation and margin for error. Do you know why multiple people failed? For me, I failed because I put units in seemingly the wrong places, or was not set up properly to recruit Shaun and Bradley on turn 2 if i sent everyone left.

In most games you don’t need to be exploiting the match ups to win (ie you can fight at neutral or even WTD and still get by in many cases, albeit not all the time), but it helps. I think this game (from what I’ve played), seems to expect you to play with advantage, whether by weapon triangle or PRF effective, on each battle.

Again, I am also not good at Fire Emblem and am not a majorly technical player. I tend to play FE a lot by feel and doing quick math when I need to.

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Well that example with recruiting the cavs is sorta what I mean. I put two lance enemies that Walter one shots directly above his starting location, basically to say “hey player, Walter should probably go that way,” and then had the cavs spawn accordingly so that Walter can recruit them. They used to spawn above the river in an older build, too. So when I see that someone sends Walter left, towards sword enemies and away from lance enemies, I don’t know what to do. Is that a failure on my part, or the player? I don’t want to have dialogue literally tell the player to send Walter up, I tried to encourage it naturally with enemies, but that still clearly fails anyway. Other people failing at chapter 1 seems to have mainly been from overestimating player bulk, but that goes back to me not wanting the game to be too easy. Again it’s like FE6 chapter 1, your cavs still get 2HKOd by all the axe enemies in that chapter.

You say you’re not very good at the game, but I also don’t want to use that as an excuse. I just don’t know what criticisms I’m supposed to listen to and what ones I should ignore.

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For me, I sent everyone left because I felt that sending Lionel alone was not ideal. I also wasn’t sure if enemies would charge me or not. In subsequent attempts, I put units at the ends of ranges across the north bridge, but would die if I got hit twice. Admittedly, I could’ve probably used Zach to bait more with his PRF.

With only 3 units to work with on turn 1, I did not feel like splitting was a good idea. Perhaps if Shaun and Bradley showed up on the first turn or before the battle started as blue units, splitting 2 and 3 left and up would feel more feasible.

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