Do you use Jagens?

oifeys and jagens are the same things, there is not bar for when a jagen becomes an oifey. Even with reclassing you can’t reach the same level of heights as Seth can, both ultimately have access to almost the full weapon triangle (let’s not try and argue that jagen can use staves or magic or something because he has piss poor magic) with seth only missing out on axes which isn’t really a big deal in fe8. with javelins and hand axes being fantastic in both games, just because you think jagens should be support units doesn’t mean that jagens like seth should be undervalued. Seth has better bases and growths than jagen does, because jagen is one of the few jagens that is actually likely to blank a few levels. Sure you have something like forged ridersbane on jagen compared to seth but seth has such good bases and growths that he can still one round enemies 80% of the game on 0% growths.
If we’re discussing utility then let’s also discuss how Seth can rescue drop, further increasing his utility. It doesn’t matter if jagen can reclass to wyvern lord and fly over terrain if he can’t even kill without a forged ridersbane or silver axe. Don’t get me wrong Jagen is by far one of the best jagens, it’s just that seth is the best unit in the series with the only contest being titania (three houses lords and robin need a bit of babying at the beginning of the game before tearing their games in half)

I’m not sure soloing hard 5 with jagen is possible past chapter 2 or 3 because you need to kill hyman who has a hand axe and if you’re specifying that you only use cain and abel as healers then you can’t use them for that chapter because they can’t reclass yet, even if you use all 20 heal staffs and all 3 vulneraries you’re given it’s more likely that jagen will will be one rounded than it is that hyman will break his hand axe. Hard 4 may be possible though but with limited healing it’s still up to rng

No but also yes

Of course Seth would be better than Jagen if they were both in the same game, that isn’t even a question. But Jagen ultimately has more utility than Seth. Seth is fast movement wise and can do reliable damage with growths that make him never fall off aswell as rescue dropping. Jagen has the ability to use not only Lances and Swords at A and D level, in a game where weapon level matters much more, but also use C swords and C bows at base thanks to Swordmaster and Sniper reclass. And that he is a bad magic user couldn’t be more wrong. His personal Magic growth is 10%, which is on par with Merric, Dark mage cord, wrys, aswell as just slightly lower than lena or linde. 30% magic, 25%speed, is really not that bad for shadow dragon standards. His 0 personal magic isn’t that far from most other magic user’s base either.

So to recap, he can use wyrmslayers at base, Killerbows at base, all lances in the game at base, fly, and use mend at base for atleast the first ten chapters till you get a Master seal and can promote other units. But up till then he might aswell have reached even better weapon levels which not only let him use more powerful weapons, but also give quite considerable bonuses by themselves (+3 dmg for A swords for example.) Even if he doesn’t use Forged weapons he can still do considerable damage to just about every enemy type with a weakness in the game. Or be an additional staff user with slightly more move than lena, wrys, etc thanks to being promoted.

Then there’s also the fact that Seth just kills everything that comes in his path in one round for the early game, which is in my opinion bad as your jagen should help setting up kills for your weaker units.

Seth is good, but he can’t do even half of what Jagen can. Although he does what he can do better than jagen. In the end it really matters what you value more, a strong unit which has lots of movement and can plug any wall or rescue someone in need and ride off, or some old guy who can deal with just about any threat that comes at him, if you prepare well enough.

That being said i don’t really wanna get into massive debates about these things again, so lets not continue stretching this further, because it doesn’t really matter all that much in the end.

agreed it’s clear we both have different views on what makes a specific unit good or not

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The closest we’ve ever gotten is reclassed FE12 Arran to General, who is pretty helpful in the earlygame of H3/H4 because enemy offenses are so ridiculously high.

no i would only use seth because he is strong as jagien and has oifey growth and it would be great

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this is a silly thread

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In general, I don’t like Jaigens because I’m not a fan of Horse Emblem (TLDR - I find the designs for social knights dull and the way it turns maps into aggressive hit-and-run gameplay sucks what I enjoy out of FE)

Having said that, besides the powerhouse Oifay types, like Seth and Titania, I like the idea of a mentor character writing wise, and having a unit who can shore up a bunch of low base level 1 babies is good. An ideal Jaigen, for me, is one who can weaken on playerphase so your growth units can follow up, but has enough defense to bottle neck until you recruit armor knights or HP walls; If someone made a Bow general or Sniper Jaigen who could mercy on player phase with a base defense around 12 or 13, I’d consider that chef’s kiss perfection

yeah jagens will feel pretty bad to use for people who want to take the game slowly and use the lower movement units like armor knights and more than a few foot units. Also just a note here, about your hit and run argument, that can only be present in games with super canto like path of radiance and three houses, in most games canto units still auto wait after attacking or using an item.

Super canto exasperates it, but even with just “Regular” canto or just having 7+ mobility, it becomes a game of charging in to get the alpha strikes, and then either abusing rescue staff, dancer refreshing, or in the rare chance of low con cavs, just picking up your vulnerable boys and carrying them out of range on your horse

what further grinds my gears, in general with social knights and in jeigans as well, is they tend to be jack-of-alls, with multiple weapon proficiencies and solid or at least above average stats across the board; having weapon specialists or growths and bases that give a more specialized roll both opens up who you throw in the sortie on a map and how you use them

so what you dislike is… the ability to save units from being killed and you believe the only way to use cav units is to run in swing, dance or rescue a them and another unit away and then run out of unit range… I’ll let this speak for itself…

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I’ll admit its a wrong opinion, but I generally prefer to either lure in “aka the most boring way to play” or carefully manuevering the whole party to do pincer moves on guy in chair after sniping him or covering the guy taking the lead by having backup cover his/her/their flanks or remove things that they are vulnerable to on enemy phase, using longbows or magic

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The duality of mankind is often astounding.

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I play the same way too. I’m personally guilty of having trained a level 1 healer from Radiant Dawn up to promotion in only 5, sometimes 6 or 7 chapters😅…

Anyway, I also play the same way as you described because I like my team coming together to bring down the enemies.

The real solution to the Jeigan problem is to kill them off early. (I believe they actually were planning to do this in the first game lol) Kick the crutch from the player and see if they can walk. Langrisser 1 did this and it worked quite well imo, was quite frantic for the next couple of chapters.

I guess FE5 kinda does it with eyval, (one of the reasons why this is the best part of the game) but you still get dagda for the rest of the game post escape.

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I’m not a fan of this approach from a gameplay perspective. To me, it’s effectively saying that they couldn’t/didn’t want to balance the jagen for long term use, so they just get rid of them after a certain point. This can either lead to a jagen who is insane before they disappear (see: Eyvel), or a jagen who is already balanced and didn’t need to get killed anyway (Lionel the Lady of Masks jagen had me feeling this). I’d rather the jagen be designed to scale poorly so they aren’t overbearing later on, rather than taking away one of the player’s tools.

That said, killing off the jagen can leave a really big impact on the story, more so than with regular characters because of the inherent role that jagens have. Losing them hits harder than losing someone else.

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there’s evidence in three houses code that Jeralt was once planned to be playable, which could explain why we lack a jagen in three houses…

All I’m saying is that there has to be a reason why he wasn’t playable in white clouds seeing as the game isn’t afraid to rip units away from you (hunting by daybreak, flayn and catherine in crimson flower, and that one paralogue in azure moon where dimitri just isn’t there.)

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The Jagen is a character that fulfills the role of a mentor figure for the Main Character (most of the time). As such it’s realistic that this character is usually the strongest unit you have at the beginning of the game but grows slower and has lower Growth Rates than the rest. The perfect Jagen Character for me is a unit that is very useful for the early game and stays a viable option after that point. However he noticeable starts to fall of and will inevitable be surpassed if not replaced by other units after they promoted etc. It’s both a powerful tool to the player but also a test if he trains up only him or others. Kinda like “If you rely too much on others” you will get in trouble if you only use him… Except that in most games you actually get away with training your Jagen or only one unit for the entire game as long as you know what you’re doing. But personally I have more fun to train up a whole army of good units.

In my first FE7 Run ever I actually used Marcus. I loved to see him being so strong and a solution for a dense situation. His crit animation was awesome. And while he was very strong he wasn’t immortal. I did notice though that he grew slower than other units which was logical. He clearly must’ve been an evolved version of Kent and Sain. I didn’t fed all the kills to him because it was logical to me that he would eventually grow less good or at least much slower. But sadly this run only went on to the first Dragon Gate mission. I remember I promoted Kent but never touched that save file again. I actually can’t continue that run anymore because I deleted the save file years ago.

Afterwards I was following this good advice to act like Marcus isn’t there. To not give him kills and waste Exp. Now the thing is that you can decide to not use him of course but thinking back how that advice influenced me it’s likely that others followed that example as well. Which is kinda sad. Marcus and other Jagens are everything but Exp Thieves. And it’s sad that a majority of players only sees them as those and even newer ones Post Fates will probably never know what such a character is.

Personally I use them nowadays. They’re strong units that either fall off or behind the cavaliers you train up. But the thing is just because a unit will eventually surpass a strong unit doesn’t automatically makes that unit to something like Base Marty or anything. I think it’s cool that the normal difficulties don’t require such a characters but give you the option to make your life easier (and show you how other units like this could look in the future) while on harder difficulties you really learn to appreciate them. They are also not lame invincible units like I said previously. I mean it’s probably due to my stupidity but I managed to get Jagen killed in the first chapter of Shadow Dragon… twice. One time on normal.

Also another option you have is that once you don’t need your Jagen anymore that you can simple switch that character out for another one. Using a unit once don’t put you on a contract to always take it with you.

Using Jagens or not depending on the reason can tell a lot about a player. And one of the reasons to not use him is a thing that I’d really like to disappear from the mindset of new players or those who give this as the first advice. But this is only about this particular reason. If you decide to not use Jagens because you don’t want to have a strong unit at the start or you simple enjoy training up the units with more potential it’s more than fine.

About Jeralt in Three Houses - That game generally needs more units. Or no… It would need to make existing characters with voice lines, artworks, models, etc. playable. There is no reason why Jeralt, Judith, Nader, Ladislava, and so on we’re left behind other than “We didn’t have time to make support conversations” or some other crap like that. You did release a paid DLC character with everything but this too so why not… Sorry but I jut don’t get why they were so stubborn to only focus on the students and just a hand full of other characters for this game. I don’t see a reason why to not make them playable especially since Judith would serve the same role as Gilbert in Azure Moon and later on Jeritza in Crimson Flowers. And to an extent Seteth in White Clouds although he is playable in the majority of routes. Jeralt still could’ve been killed off and you could’ve simple banned him from teaching like you did with Dimitri in Azure Moon Post Timeskip. The existence of Jeralt in the early game (especially with the option to bench him) would’ve make Maddening Early Game a lot faster (or at least easier). Also I don’t see a reason why Jeralt wouldn’t be controllable at least in the missions where he is an NPC. Maybe they we’re afraid that you would train him or invest too much in him. But by simple giving him an Exp-Penality, forbid him to learn other skills, make him inaccessible for some missions like the tournament at the start and the gondor field battle and so on the game would’ve made it clear that this unit is just someone that watches over you and is helping you.

You could argue that both Byleth and the lord (especially Edelgard and Dimitri who already had combat experience before Garreg Mach) kinda are in this role of a Jagen. They’re mentors for the rest of the class. And better than most of your students at the beginning. But still - I think Jeralt and other potential Mid-Game Prepromotes would’ve been a good addition to Three Houses. And maybe made it a bit more Permadeath-Friendly.

In the end I notice a trend that the developers focus more on units that start out very bad but grow to become strong units along the way. Beasts at the end if you want to say that. Which resulted in an entire game focused on that philosophy. It’s definitely cool and I see why many people enjoy it. For me Three Houses can be described as a journey with your students that overcome not only their lack of skill in combat but also their personal issues as they grow up - But since Byleth is a self insert or a very quite character that doesn’t act like a mentor figure at all (yet get’s all the praise since you’re in his shoes and have success) and even Jeralt being practically not there even when he is still alive, I feel something is missing. And let’s be real - Who cared about the fathers death in this game? He and Byleth had 0 interaction. Maybe a little bit but… Compare this to Greil.

It’s cool to have the option to use or to bench a Jagen Character. Taking away that option is bad imo. Especially since those units would be very helpful on the harder difficulties. And if properly balanced they wouldn’t be an easy win button. Jakob and Felicia proofed that they can also do Jagens that grow good but not perfect. Units that not nessecarily fit the mentor role but are always on the side of their lord and are viable from start to finish. If they just want to get rid of the potential punishment that could lead to bad feelings since you obviously made a bad descision and kept feeding kills to that units for multiple hours which results in you having trouble to continue the game - This is the template to follow. Or something along these lines. Just like with the fear that permadeath will screw you over the idea with a Jagen being an Exp-Thief is usually not something to fear in the majority of Fire Emblem games. Games that are designed properly around that give all your units more than enough Exp to grow. It’s usually nothing to worry that much about. And especially on normal mode even the more modern games are more than beatable. The disappearance of the Jagen to me is another design descision in modern FE that is similar to the descision of making a smaller cast and the game less permadeath friendly.

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Lady of Masks spoilers

This was a story decision set in stone long before I ever developed any chapters, not a gameplay decision. Prior to that, Lionel was the leader of the resistance, and a figurehead for a lot of otherwise very vague concepts – ideals, honour, national identity, they’re all tangled up in Lionel’s legacy after his passing. He’s emblematic of a lot, upheld as the perfect example of a Cerahni knight during a point in the story where the player doesn’t really know what that means yet. With Fane as his protege, responsibility passes to him to lead the army and to try and disentangle those concepts and figure out what they actually mean, and Fane is often not up to the task and comes up with dissatisfactory or unhealthy answers to those questions. There’s other reasons as well (character arcs, story pacing, late-game reveals, establishing threat level, shifting the tone of the story), but more or less none of them involve anything along the lines of “the player shouldn’t be allowed to have this unit moving into the early-midgame,” the decision was entirely script-oriented and has huge ramifications, though that’s obviously difficult to see when the current build ends on this moment.

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lionel=sigfried tlp real??

For me, whether I use a Jagen or not it depends a lot on the game. For harder games like FE1, FE5, or FE6 (or in higher difficulties like Lunatic/Maniac/whatever the hell it is now) you can bet your sweet patootie I’ll be using my Jagen a lot–you need every tool you can get in those games. Hell, I used Jagen for almost the entirety of my first FE1 playthrough–a stat booster or two goes a LONG way in that game. But for easier games like FE8, using a Jagen just feels like overkill, so I often forego using them entirely in order to make those games somewhat challenging.

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