Can i just delete armors from my hack?

Design
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I know im my own person and i can mod however i please, but genuinely

How do you feel about removing armors from the game? Especially from a game with so few classes to begin with in FE15?

Armor in most games is pretty mediocre, needing more time to accomplish less.

Armor in echoes is uniquely terrible. Apart from the infamous teleporting witches and 3 space doubling magic, echoes armors really suffer from the lack of movement much more in a game so focused on either the boss being killed or the map being cleared. Even in maps where they would theoretically be better by tanking, like desaix fortress, clive’s maybe not getting doubled is pretty good and might make him more survivable if the magic doesnt immediatley kill clive or the armor.

Point is that armor classes are bad for the player, as an enemy unit they can be annoying but they add a fine-ish layer of strategy to a already barebones game.

In my playthroughs of echoes, I usually change lukas, forsythe, and valbar into cavaliers so they can still use lances that the game assumes they would want to have while letting them actually contribute with their stats.

I really dont feel like thinking about the armor class when fixing the design of echoes maps. So i might just change the classes of the armor units the player recieves and keep armor as an enemy class.

But yeah really armors in fe feel bad to use so pretty please can i not use them?

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yeah you can, nobody’s gonna kill you for not having armors lol

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Wait I’m not? Oh. Alright then.

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nah i lied we’re killing you with hammers.

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Beloved Fringus,

It is with a concerned conscience that I respond to this message. For one, ENGAGING in violence is never the answer. However, I believe armors can be solved if you give them 12 move and give them 21 skl minimum

Sincerely,

Ru

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Armours in Echoes are good, at least Lukas is.
Lukas is like C or B tier in echoes he contributes early and has competent combat the whole game, also just like use warp you get it early, it’s uses aren’t limited and Lukas is a good target as his stats are good enough and he will get kills and/or soften enemies.

Also in FE2 Lukas was the best unit lol, literally does most of the work because warp is even stronger.

Anyway uh yeah you can remove armours but like… why?

Removing Armours just removes a unit you can use in your maps as an ally or enemy, a unit type you can give the player, a unit type effective weapons can be used on, you have removed a flavour and maybe it’s not one you like or one that fits, but someone will miss it.

Also I feel you will develop your skills better if you think about how to implement things you don’t like for example I don’t like monks very much, I think they feel underwhelming and I’d rather have a unit that has staff rank than high light rank, I still have monks in FE:BOG as it’s a tool I can employ in my maps as unpromoted light mages [which is useful as the magic system is reworked], and a unit I can give the player, and someone will like monks.

Armours have a much more immediately noticeable niche in design that if you remove you will not be able to replicate.
If you remove all armours including great knights you will miss out entirely on adding units that are strong but with big drawbacks [less move, weak to effective weapons, weak to magic, etc]
as such your units will be limited, you wont be able to add a big king type unit/boss like Zephiel.

There is really very little reason to do this so I think you shouldn’t, just improve armours by giving them skills or other uses like full Weapon Triangle [and bows], or if you want to be lazy infantry move.

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I think people are really undervaluing Echoes armors here. The class is inherently not that good, no villager should ever take it, but the three who exist at base all range from decent to genuinely great due to circumstance.

Lukas is probably the lowest S-tier (assuming an S+ tier exists for Leon, Genny, and Kliff) or highest A-tier because of how strong his act 3 is, which is one of the hardest points for Alm’s route imo. He falls off for lategame due to both low damage output and low resistance, but frankly he has served his purpose by then.

Valbar is noticeably worse, especially with his bases being below that of a generic in some aspects, but he’s very solid on a good few Celica’s route maps and pretty much one of two physical walls that route gets (but Saber is obviously amazing).

Forsyth… he’s definitely the worst of the three, but I think people don’t give him enough credit. In a vacuum, and even in practice, he’s perfectly fine. He starts slowly, but doesn’t require much training to reach his promotion threshold, and after that outpaces Lukas easily. His big issue is competing with Python for the end of act 1 early act 3 EXP, and Python is genuinely worth consideration if your archer (presumably Gray) isn’t turning out all that well or if you don’t have one at all (understandable because Gray’s class is more flexible). But a second, better Lukas is not bad at all.

The class itself also adds a lot of value to certain units unrelated to being in the class. For example, Luthier is instantly way more valuable than one would expect due to his ability to nuke knights with Excalibur, letting him actually gain EXP and realistically promote pretty early if you want to invest in him (don’t see why you would unless you like him, but he’s fun enough to use). Removing the class removes multiple units’ niches, such as Tobin (mage is all he really has going for him) Luthier (as mentioned before) and Delthea (who already struggles to stand out as is).

So overall, I think it’s definitely worth keeping around.

Also, knight is 100% better than cavalier in the context of the units themselves in Echoes. Every cavalier is equally mid, except for Zeke who is slightly worse than the others. The reason the knights work well reclassed to cav is cause they bring high defense and strength bases over to the class, which lets them snowball way easier than, say, Clive. After over a dozen runs of experience, I think the only time I’ve ever really gotten really good use out of a cav was postgame Zeke (since his growths are so high) and a reclassed postgame Deen, but that pales in comparison to the amount of times Lukas has saved my ass in act 3.

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no i personally do not allow you to delete armors, sorry bro, gotta include them, otherwise you can’t release the hack legally

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I don’t like it?

That’s really about it. I like a unit that has a shortcoming to play around and armors have one that is more crippling and therefore should be more rewarding. Vanilla armors just don’t actually give you that more reward because that isn’t the intended dynamic; which I believe to be that an armor gives you reliability and surety at cost of movement.

I don’t think it makes sense to not have them, but at the same time - make something you like or have pride in. If you don’t like player armors and don’t think they’re fun, why would you put them there?

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On Alm’s route at least, the Soldier line of classes is perfectly fine. There have been fast paced clears of Alm’s route with very little, if any, difference for turns between runs that prioritise training Knights and ones that prioritise Paladins. Knight base Atk with a Ridersbane forge can OHKO many enemy Cavaliers and Paladins reliably which makes them easier to position into blocks of enemy horses, plus Warp and Rescue circumvent many movement issues.

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You don’t have to and you should not feel pressured to use them/include them in your hack if you don’t want to. No need to validate your opinion either, that’s just how you like to play!

I will say however, that a lot of “bad armors” are the result of the way they were implemented in some games. Like many have pointed out, the soldier line in Echoes is not terrible although it does have its weaknesses.

The reason a lot of people don’t use armor knights, is because of their low movement and defense being the only viable thing these units have. But take a look at FE7 Oswin once and you’ll realise that, with good stats, armor knights can be really viable and a great asset to your army. If only some armor knight just didn’t have such shit speed, luck, skill, res and maybe even a double digit strength stat, they’d be a lot more useful.

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Check your doors

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what else would people wear though if they don’t have armors

unless you want them to go around fighting in their swimsuits

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Feel free to do your class meta the way you want. Just make sure you do have unit variety.

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bro delete swords for all I care. (like the weapon)

I’m here for gameplay and story, however you wanna get things done is up to you.

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Nah, Kaga says no.

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Awakening dlc flashbacks

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If you feel or know that armour units won’t fit in your setting thematically or mechanically, then feel free to cut them. You can emulate the concept with a high defense recruitable unit and cut out their weaknesses/vulnerabilities, ie magic, effective weapons, low speed, low move, and create a class or unit with none of those weaknesses but the desired strength (making weapons deal chip damage and holding points/drawing aggro)…

Alternatively, consider if its the maps and units you are designing that magnify the weaknesses of armours and if that is your intent, does every map encourage movement as the important stat, either anti-turtling or large scale maps? Is magic overtuned and common in the enemy army? Are effective weapons your prefered counter/strategy play against player intention? Is the setting antithetical to dudes walking around in plate mail (swamps, deserts, oceans, any biome that discomfort and a lack of mobility would invite questions basically)

TL;DR yes, but ask yourself why

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In early game, every non-mounted unit you have other than Alm is also 4-move. Mages, which you cited as their weakness, also have only 4 move, even upon promotion. The only base game magic class that can out move armor is the Saint, which is player exclusive. There are no armor-slaying weapons to worry about. Even though all maps are rout, some, such as dungeon encounters with gargoyles and dragon zombies, force you to make defensive walls to protect your squishy units. Using pitchforks can make any unit extremely overpowered. They are DLC for a reason. FE2/15 is frequently cited as one of the best showings for armored units. Why?

FE2 and its remake have the slimmest selection of playable classes, and they all fill unique roles and niches. There is no redundancy such as mercs and myrms. This is perhaps the simplest and most chess-like FE can be. Say armors are removed. As a result, mages would suffer. They would be the slow 4 move class now. Cavs and fliers easily outrun them. Mercs and escpecially Dread Fighters would follow up attack and destroy them. Archers outrange them. Now mage is the “bad class that must be deleted!” If one of these classes is removed, the entire Fire Emblem 2 ecosystem collapses.

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Arden would cry. Do you really want to upset Arden?

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