What do you think is poisoning Fire Emblem as a series?

So, I was in a call with some people the last few days ago, and we got to talking. It wasn’t about FE, but about my favorite hated online game, Dead By Daylight. So little balancing, an oppositional devteam who won’t recognize failures. More and more bland appeal day by day to console the powergamers without any consideration for how horribly broken the current balance is.

The whole game’s idea was turned on its head, going from killers being the predominant threat that the survivors needed to really flee from. But nowadays? It’s a challenge to get even one kill, and now it’s about one killer desperately needing to abuse everything to take down four horribly overpowered, even more unstoppable survivors. This is in spite of people pointing out time and time again just how overly dominating many of the best skills were. Whereas the opposing side only got weaker as time went on. Yet the devs continued listening to streamers who abused these things for spectacle over players who, more than ever, either wanted a true challenge again without needing to force restrictions (survivors) or wanted to be able to play the game without being some mega-minded genius (killers).

It made me think about the FE Franchise, and how it similarly has these things throughout, things only getting worse and worse as you look forward while it travels such a similar path. Of extreme skills, under-toned enemies, weaker moments meant for mass appeal, and nothing really notable to show for it besides the “Marvelization” of so much beloved media.

But enough of my thoughts, so…what do you think poisoned the series? Really curious to hear what others think on this.

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I think it’s Fringus

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not letting axes dominate the game

edit: y’all write too much, the answer is mutton

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The lack of engaging story tropes

On a serious note though I think its moreso the “us vs them” mentality that permeates through the community. If there was more compromise and civility I think it’d help mend some of those fractures

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This question is faulty.
Each FE game is different further more you provide no examples so I don’t even know what you are complaining about.
your listed complaints are also just wrong.

what skills?, Which game?
Is this talking about FE4 and canto, or FE9 and wrath/resolve, or FE6 Crit classes, or awakening’s galeforce, or is this about engages emblem abilities, and how are these skills extreme in raw power or in utility or both? neither?

In what game? on what difficulty? with or without dlc?
Engage maddening is most affected by these questions but this holds true for fates, three houses and awakening, even older games like FE6 hard and FE9 maniac, or SD H5 or New mystery lunatic reverse, all of with have varying degrees of over tuned super strong enemies on the highest difficulty.
Or do you mean in a story sense?
If so that’s even more subjective and nonsense!

I assume this is about story.
Entirely subjective and only true of Engage and Heroes… Heroes is a mobile png slot machine and as such can be disregarded, and Engage is an anniversary title, so I’m willing to cut some slack, although yes it’s story is slop, and the writers did actually try to tell a good, serious story.
I legitimately don’t think any other game can have this argued about it in good faith.
While fates is a bad story it’s characters and supports do offer some good and I wouldn’t call most of what it does mass appeal bids, but just poor writing decisions.

What are you even saying?
What do you mean by this term, what marvel moves?
Iron man? endgame? thor? thor 2? guardian’s of the galaxy? Spider-man?
all of those movies have different tones and style even if some of the DNA is shared more or less throughout.
Not even engage has Marvel like dialog, it’s just generic anime tropes, like basically every FE, some games just do it better or worse, with more or less interesting ideas, even then if the story was marvel-esque, so what?
like it could be like that and written well, but FE has never been written like that and probably won’t because it’s a different series, with different tropes and aesthetics made in a different country with different values and culture.

Your DBD comparison [Assuming it’s accurate I haven’t played DBD] is laughably irrelevant, DBD is a continually updated game that if game design, focus, and balance shifts necessarily erases the old gameplay and vibe, while FE is a consistently evolving series, if you don’t like modern FE don’t play it, the old art will never be erased by the series releasing new completely separate content.

Further more FE really hasn’t had such an extreme change, the basics remain the same and if you really hate new systems like reclass you can ignore it.
further more as I said old content isn’t destoryed by the new content’s existence as such you can go back to that if you are so repelled but speaking of that, the old games changed just as much.

FE1, first game has basics, marth has like 3 personal weapons lol

FE2 had no axe users and had radically different promotion and army structure

Fe3 reverted to the FE1 style of class and army structure and added dismounting

FE4 added skills and used FE2’s whole army deployment style, it also has several unique features such as the love mechanic, the arena and the pawn shop

FE5 goes back to the more traditional style but adds it’s own mechanics of PCC and leadership, movement growth, con stat, con growth

Gba dropped skills from FE4 and 5, removed movement and con growth, nerfed canto and 6/7 had HMBs, added support system

FE9 added skills and FE4 canto back, added more removed some and changed how they work, it also added daggers and Laguz, adds forge

FE10 has a split army structure and reworked almost all of FE9’s mechanics, non-gba style support system

FE11 guts skills again and adds reclass and FE1’s unique features such as Xane, no supports

FE12 adds avatars and reworks reclass, no supports

Fe13 has everything all the skills and classes and stuff you could want, adds pair up, adds marriage based on FE4 love system, adding child unit features that are very unique and complex, has new reclass system severely limiting it

FE14 reworks pair up and has dragon veins and also changes around skills, also has new reclass system with it’s new seals that affect how units are built

FE15 is a remake of FE2 has most of those features, removes other game features and adds combat arts

FE16 is unique army/game structure has monsters that take up multiple tiles and expands on weapon skill building and unit customization, alters combat arts to use durability, any unit can use any weapon [aside magic], adds fist weapons

FE17 reworks reclass again and has the emblem rings and unique skill inheritance system, changes fist weapons to the much inferior arts, adds break system and unit types that interact with other mechanics and allow units to do certain actions outside of combat and staves

And that’s all just off the top of my head, these games all change up how they function so it’s a counter productive exercise to suggest let alone look for some kind of “Poison” that is magically making the series worse, the longest we’ve gone with an even somewhat consistent gameplay is the GBA era with 3 games, even then FE6 and FE7 alone feel different and play different, each game is just so different in how they expand on the basics of the FE formula that looking for this “Poison” will only elicit misery, this idea that FE is dying is the very “Poison” you seek despite this being both demonstrably false and the series inconsistency being ironically consistent.

You are not the first to think this, many have before you, it was said when FE13 released, it was said when fates released, it was said with three houses, and I know if you look for it you’ll see the same sentiment for FE 9, FE 10, FE 11, I bet further back still in the Japanese community, I can easily imagine cries of FE6 departing from thracia’s dark tone and complex system in favour of appealing to children with it’s bright colours and release on a handheld, and bemoaning that FE7 and 8 continued in that direction.

It is fine if current FE doesn’t appeal to you, I dislike some of it’s aspects like reclass and monastery but to say FE is poisoned is hyperbolic and childish, just because you don’t like the direction a series takes doesn’t mean it is dead or objectively bad, others will enjoy it, or systems can be refined, furthermore the art you do like will always exist, you can still hold onto that old art, those old games and appreciate what the new does even if it isn’t for you, or you can ignore the new if you truly dislike it so.

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Those darn casuals ruining the series, obviously!

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I think they need to stop overly complicating their formula and stick to the basics of what makes a good Fire Emblem tick:

  • They should focus on a simple, but effective storyline. Even if it’s one similar to one in the past, as long as it has its own personality.
  • They should try and avoid tropey characters that feel one-dimensional and try and create a cast of unique characters that feel like they’re having an actual conversation and not necessarily a predictable one based on (x) and (y) trope both characters have.
    *Seeing Dart and Rebecca having a support without actually reading about it online made me curious and it was fun, simple but wholesome conversation.
    *Despite FE7’s stupidly long turn count needed to develop supports, one of my favourite ones was Legault and Jaffar.
  • Making everyone able to re-class to most classes make individual characters feel less unique.
  • The main game should have its own self-contained story from A to Z and DLC should be used to enhance the story, perhaps make that the “collab” we tend to get with other worlds of FE without making it feel like we’re missing something from the main game itself. Perhaps use DLC for more character development as well and if anything perhaps a tease at a future title with some of the exclusive characters found in it?
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With the direction that Fire Emblem is heading, I say they need to go back to what got them big in the first place without resorting to nostalgia. Something like investing towards an original or subversive story that twist the formulaic method with believable scenarios like the Decoy Protagonist or an protagonist who is evil in the beginning, but he goes through an redemption story or something that hasn’t been done before without relying on fan service. Have some chapters that involve a gimmick or a mechanic that is risky if done right like a morale system that actually impacts with your units.

I am no Fire Emblem expert on this, but I believe that Fire Emblem can do better. It just needs a proper motivation to get back on track.

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The poison status is poisoning Fire Emblem!!

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Yeah!
make a game like awakening the game that references nothing from the past!

Jokes aside I don’t feel FE is overly high in nostalgia bait outside Engage which was an anniversary game.

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Short commentary on this thread:

The FE series has so many vastly different games that a thread like this will be very divisive, regardless of the current state of FE. This is the same reason why any topic about “what’s your favourite fire emblem game?” will have tons of different answers that can all be valid to the person who posted it.

Some people like PoR, some people like FE4 or FE6 or FE5 or 3H or Engage or etc.

You get my point. Every game will have at least someone there to defend it. So making a thread like “What’s ruining the series !??” will very quickly devolve into endless back and forth.

Anyway, imo the two recent entries (engage & 3h) were pretty good so I dont really think there’s anything poisoning the series.

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With Engage being the most recent game in the series at the moment, and its gameplay being great all around, my main gripe would be with the localization. I am NOT a fan of the Western Engage localization. I do not support changing stuff up for no good reason (Ace Attorney and its Japanifornia setting are an exception for me to this, I will admit). There is almost never a good reason to change stuff when localizing a game. This is the same phenomen that allows situations like Vivian in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door to occur, what with the grifters denying her trans identity.

If something was criticisable in the original version, then I am in favor of it getting brought over so it can be criticised and discussed, like any piece of media/art deserves.

Moreover, I am tired of there being an Avatar MC. Only Awakening did it well, and Robin there wasn’t the only main character, but rather, shared the spotlight alongside Chrom and Lucina.
Please bring back fixed characters as protagonists, I beg of you.

I also think it’s high time for at least one or two LGBTQ+ protagonists, whose sexual orientation or gender identity cannot be up for debate. I am ignorant on Three Houses, I will admit, but what I do know is that I do NOT want stupid stuff like what Fates and Echoes did.
Echoes especially, from what I remember, is chock full of straight couples, whereas Leon (as far as I’m aware the only gay character - plz correct me if I’m wrong) gets the privilege of having an unrequited crush, as well as never making any friends outside of his crush on Valbar and rudeness to Kamui (to be fair, that IS an Echoes-wide issue).

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Some Skills and Combat Arts and Emblem Rings weren’t completely overpowered. But the next game is almost certainly going to focus even more “Super Moves” that show unique animation and make players using them momentarily feel like gods. That’s the easiest way to make the player feel moments of extreme strength without making them always feel too strong.

yeah I agree. poison is the original poison. They are out here wasting item ID slots on poison. Also code on poison traps. All sorts of things.

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I think the biggest issue is that illegal Rom hacks and Fangames make IS lose 45 billion in profits each year, so they’re forced to appeal more and more to Visual Novel, Persona, and Dating Sim players.

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so

not enough?

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IMO ever since the focus on relationships outstripped the focused the conflict/politics/lore of the world.

So you can trace the downfall of the series to Alm and Celica. Espically considering they have the first support bonus of the franchise.

Them and their, guaranteed crits when they stand at melee range for endgame ruined everything.

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I personally have yet to play a bad (official) Fire Emblem game so I have no idea what’s supposed to be poisoning this series.

worse, they need to appeal to Paper Mario players. :nauseated_face:

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I don’t think anything is poisoning Fire Emblem games. I do think as the franchise evolves, it may take a direction some players don’t like. Such is life. Luckily we have hacks to scratch that GBA era itch.

Recent Fire Emblem design directions I’m not so fond of

  • units being able to swap to any class. Who cares? Unit identity is so much more important.
  • avatar characters. Robin and Mark were fine… though totally unnecessary. Mark could have just not existed and Robin could have just been found by Chrom without being customized / named by the player. Avatars lend themselves to avatar worship and it’s kinda lame / ruins immersion.
  • good vibes / aesthetics beating a logical, coherent world. All of the political elite teenagers going to the same school in 3H always seemed like a stupid excuse to have a high school drama setting in the Middle Ages. Then the characters in Engage seemed so… random and unfit to exist in any kind of coherent world. The divine dragon god is protected on an empty island by two preteens and one old man? There’s no priestly hierarchy or anything? The world feels flat and puddle-deep from the start.

That’s it. If Fire Emblem forgot about class changes, avatars, and characters / worlds that look cool but don’t hold up to any amount of scrutiny… then that’d be nice and more to my liking. But nothing is poisoned. 3H and Engage are still fun games.

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