i think players should just get a better grasp on probability and statistics in general
then they wouldn’t get mogged so hard by their misunderstanding of how often an 80% happens
7 Likes
I feel like most FE Players think they are mogged by growths because they played too many 2RN FE games to the point where they forgot that a 80% isn’t guaranteed to always happen with 1RN stuff like growths. Makes one question how many peoole actually played Kaga games or any other Strategy game with 1RN.
Either way, regarding growths, I think it’s ok to show them to the player. As someone who likes to give some characters unusual growths for the class they are in, I wouldn’t want to make my players feel like they’ve been fooled by being given a character whose stat isn’t as good as their class would usually make them out to be, i. e. Tanky, high strength, low speed Myrmidon, speedy low def armor knight, you get it.
I do however have a different idea that I find better personally, and that would be instead of showing the player a units growths, they will instead be shown several measurements in words like low, medium, high or bad, mediocre, good. There’d probably be more, but these are just examples. That way you could tell a player that this units defense growth is very good, but his resistance is terrible, without spouting out some numbers that could manipulate the player into thinking that a unit is much better or worse than they actually are.
Alternatively however, instead of it showing a units growth in a stat, you could alternatively use them to say how a units stat will be in the long run or throughout the game.
Example: You get a lvl 3 Brigand with 13 strength, but she only has a 40% strength growth. This growth is rather average/decent, however due to her aforementioned 13 strength at base, she would still be one of the units with the highest strength in your party. After 10 Levels, Lvl 13 I assume, she would have 17 Strength, After 20 Levels she’d have +21 Strength, not directly counting the strength from her promotion as they vary from games/hacks, and after 30 Levels, which should be somewhere around 10-15 Promoted where most games end, she’d have +25 Strength, so anything over 25 Strength is a possibility. In this case, you can classify her strength as very good, great or whatever other measurement you’d like to use.
Of course, theres the issue of growths varying and you being able to be screwed/blessed, but thats a factor you cannot directly control unless you have the bracketing system of Berwick Saga, which would limit how much your stats can vary. Furthermore, unless said character is really screwed beyond salvation, her strength would still be higher than what most units should have, so the high strength would still be a thing.
tl;dr: Showing growths is alright if you have characters with unconventional growths, but imo a measurement would be better to tell the player in what stat the unit would actually be good at.
6 Likes
I think this is honestly a very good inbetween. Showing the average total stat instead of just numerical growths is not just more immersive, but also better psychologically since you are less likely to bench a unit outright because their growths look meh
personally would make revealing growths as NG+
unlockable.
Just the other day I chatting about this with a friend, and for me the rule of thumb is:
Can you, as the player, in any relevant way alter the growths of your units?
If the answer is “No” or “Well, there is 1 item that gives a boost on use or when holding it, but is only availible for like 4 chapters or so” then there is no real need to show them and just put more stat noise in your stats screen, that is even worst if you can’t do stuff like sort units by growth in each stat.
Examples: FE3 Book 1, FE6, FE7, FE8
If the answer is “Yes, there are lot of items to alter growths” or “Yes, growths depend on class and you can reclass a lot” then having the growth rates appear is important because you can actually affect them in meaningful ways, and having to track that on a spreadsheet is bonkers.
Examples: FE3 Book 2, FE5, FE11, FE12
Now, to prove this is not a simple hard rule, I’m really on the fence on FE4, because you cannot really affect growth rates after you have made your pairings, yet those different pairing change growths in a fairly relevant manner.
This is mostly because there isn’t really a need for having all information displayed all the time, specially info that you can do nothing about except say “Oh this unit looked cool but their growths sucks, to the bench you go” that actually sounds like a negative result.
Because, I don’t think anyone sees Sophia’s Mag and Res growth on FE6 and goes, “hell man, I really want to push myself to train her, she will be so good” if they weren’t willing to do it without that info.
Now, this is talking about using the unit stat screen, if we could display growth on a in game character page that you access like the support menu, after beating the game, then that would be cool and QoL
5 Likes
I am on the side of keeping it hidden. Visible growths change nothing about how the game plays, it just changes the player’s behavior and not necessarily in good ways. As others have said it might lead to snap judgments about a unit’s usefulness based on growths alone, and other complaints are just going to become more pointed. Instead of complaining about a unit’s bad growth record, it’ll be more pointed (why do you keep missing your 60%) or just general complaints about a unit’s bad growth total.
At best I wouldn’t go further than a boon/bane window or a growth temperature system, and in the latter case it would be personal growths only if there’s reclassing. Then you’d get a more honest portrayal about how a character tends to grow without the temps jumping around and disorienting you when you change classes.
2 Likes
I think in a game with a traditonal Fire Emblem-sized cast you should show growths. In a theoretical game where all units were perfectly balanced, maybe you wouldn’t need it, but that’s not realistic. I think a few bad in units in a large cast can make the game more varied and fun, and even if you’re trying to not have any bad units and give everyone a niche, there’s no way all 30+ niches are going to be as good as each other. Showing growths is a good way to let people play how they want. Want to really try to minmax your playthrough? Go ahead and use all the information to decide who’s more worthy of your 12th deployment slot. Do you enjoy using bad/weird units? Now you can easily find them. Do you not want to worry about growth rates and just use the units with designs/personalities you like? Don’t press the button that shows growth rates.
The only time where I’d prefer growth rates not be shown is if you can’t really use them for anything. If you have a small cast that’s force deployed then growth rates aren’t really something the player can use so it’s just increased information clutter.
1 Like
transparency is cool and all but at a basic level i like showing growths because the green and red stat names corresponding with the units strengths and weaknesses are aesthetically pleasing, no other particular reason other than convenience when it comes to growth boosting items
I’ve seen a lot of people say that showing growths is bad as the player may makes bad decisions based on misunderstanding how growths work, frankly I don’t believe this.
If someone gets bad level ups in a stat they will stop using that unit regardless of if they know the rates, knowing the rates may make them more annoyed, I don’t think this makes showing growths worse, if bad luck annoys you enough to stop playing you would stop playing if you got bad levels anyway or look up the growth in guide or other source and get annoyed all the same.
I feel like I should be able to trust players to understand that luck exist.
Many other games show luck percentages and players use those to make decisions, hell fire Emblem does this with hit and crit.
I think it is on the player to learn what numbers mean, the real issue is the casual player’s lack of knowledge in how to understand growth, if the main series FE games displayed growth we wouldn’t have this discussion as it’d be common knowledge to players on how to treat and think about growths, I think players that engage in the broader FE community in some form will already know how to navigate unit growths vs their own luck at least on some level.
Most players can be expected to understand how crits work, both crit and growth when known can annoy the player in a very similar manner, however I don’t see most people claiming crit shouldn’t exist/be displayed because it can annoy people, sometimes you get bad luck, it is on the player to deal with it.
All showing growth does is alleviate confusion on why the player is getting lower levels, Bad luck, vs Poor Growth.
I do agree that different levels of obfuscation would be good for different game designs.
3 Likes