Everyone talks about mono Cavs but where is discussion about multi weapon T1 infantry?
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Iâm pretty strongly against multi-weapon T1s and multi-weapon enemy units in general because they start to confuse visual language, especially in 2D titles. If youâre playing FE7 and you see a group of 3 mercenaries, whose map sprites wield swords, thatâs pretty clear visual design telling you to not throw a fighter in and to instead use a knight. Itâs pretty rude to then have those 3 mercenaries have a surprise Hammer. It would be less rude to have one of those units have a surprise Armorslayer, since thatâs less likely to kill your knight in one hit (depending on the game) and you instead get a sharp reminder to not get complacent.
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Fe9 approach. Make them mono weapon and when they promote to paladin they can pick their second weapon.
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I think theyâre perfectly fine in my opinion. In fact, Iâm using that same system in my own work. Not to nerf cavaliers per se, but to add more class distinction and variety to my cast of characters, even if a bit on the minor side.
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this rightfully belongs to armor knights
lance/axe lets them have hard hitting weapons and both javelins and handaxes at base while also not giving them advantage against their worst physical enemies which are axe users
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I was so mad when I first played fe8 and the cavs were using swords instead of the lances on their sprites, i was falling for it everytime
please use the multiple cavs sprite in the repo it so much better that way even if it probably wonât matter after promotion
I made most of my points in my first post but one thing I keep seeing is the mention of map sprites and frankly I find that argument weak, many T2 classes use multiple weapons and I donât see anyone calling them confusing and frankly you should be looking at enemy inventories not checking them is unironically a skill issue, especially with games that use vanilla classes as you know what to expect.
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People have already said their point about unit balance, but I want to add that I agree against having three weapon clones. Having three classes with the exact same layout is not only boring, itâs also impractical because swords typically require a different stat spread than lances and axes. The only class I think can truly get away with a full triangle of clones is Armor Knight, because their stat spread is specialized in such a way to make the disparity less impactful and also because armor is an underrepresented movement type.
If you want to do mono-cavs then my recommendation is to have two builds, a lance-or-axe cavalier and a sword-or-bow âfree knightâ or nomad. Iâd also recommend this split for any another weapon clones class set (again, aside from Armor Knight); and if you want multiple cavs without the mono part then just do sword/lance and sword/axe.
Lastly, Iâll say that promotion pathing also plays a role. If youâre going to have branching promotions then Iâd avoid two-weapon unpromoted classes so as to not overload any promoted class on options; but if classes only have one path then two-weapon base classes are easier to work with.
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I dunno why the title was changed, but I imagine it quite unfortunate for your Cavaliers to get mononucleosis.
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Long story short, tradeoffs are good and healthy for FE, and dual-weapon cavs are powerful and common enough that they ruin these tradeoffs. Infantry should have more weapon options compared to cavs to make up for their low move, and armors imo should also have full weapon triangle control to compensate.
This also makes it much easier to differentiate between the mountain of different cavs you get, as your lance cav is now meaningfully different from your bow cav, even if they have few other differences. It is increased variety and choice at a very low complexity cost
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I actually love mono-weapon cavs, particularly when Wlv is not a free resource and is substantially different by class. FE4/FE17 are examples of this.
Even with cavs having the exact same statline (true in both FE4 and FE17), the differences between specialist and generalist (FE4 Paladin) is actually quite apparent.
FE4 did this very well, with one exception. Since all the unpromoted cavs had the same statline, which cav they were actually was notable. Since units had fixed Wlv depending on class (only changed by Holy Blood), this meant powerful equipment was outright restricted to certain classes meant to use them. With the exception of Sword Knight being strictly inferior to Social Knight before promotion, the Social Knight and Lance Knight comparison actually gives Lance Knight legitimate merits for using only one weapon type; it could use a stronger weapon. Social Knight is stuck at E-lances, but Lance Knight can use B-Lances, such as the Steel Lance, which hits harder. The mono-weapon cavs can all use B-rank weapons, giving them good damage output compared to any theoretical 2-weapon mounted unit.
It is even further prevalent at the promoted level. While statlines have diverged somewhat, Wlv restrictions are even more apparent here. Paladin is stuck with B-Swords and B-Lances; unable to use Silvers at all, while Forrest Knight and Duke Knight can use powerful Silver weapons, and in the formerâs case, blades as well. Paladin has better all-around stats, but Duke Knight has far more punching power with a higher STR-tier and 20-MT Silver Lances while Forrest Knight has high SKL to have workable hit rates with Blades for damage, as well as Adept to potentially get an extra hit in. Great Knight has a strictly superior statline to Duke Knight (+2 defense) and does basically the same thing as Duke Knight; one big hit; Great Knight would otherwise be fine had it not for FE4âs bad balance on axes. Arch Knight is arguably the worst of the four, trading extra STR for SKL/SPD, neither of which it can use particularly well with no class skills, but even then, few things can effectively counter at 2-range, which Arch Knight can attack with an 18 MT weapon at.
FE17 does it a bit differently, as Wlv is overall higher among units in general, and Holy Blood has been replaced with Proficiency, which only works on certain classes. Even then, mono-weapon cavs are good and balanced. Their competition here is with Bow Knight, Mage Knight and Great Knight (and Avenir and Cupido to a lesser extent); Wolf Knight is better treated as a Thief with a mount (Kaga did it first, go ask Czene). Paladin having A-Wlv uninvested gives them access to Brave Weapons, which can deal out quite a lot of damage with a damage-boosting skill. Proficiency grants access to S-rank weapons, which helps them even more; Venemous and Fragarach can be obtained early by dumping 90k into Firene/Solm respectively; Venemous on a Lance Paladin is a mobile one-hit nuke, especially with Sigurd, while Fragarach provides high, consistent damage. Caladbolg is among the first S-rank weapons to be gotten in the lategame, and its lower weight than other S-rank weapons help Sword Paladins double and dish out more damage. S-Rank weapons are at the strongest they have been in modern FE; most notoriously as fuel for Engage Attacks; their raw statlines and lack of durability restriction make them very powerful if repeatedly used and invested into. The competition is stuck with B-rank weapons at best without proficiency; not only will they be unable to use S-rank weapons, Mage Knight doesnât even want physical weapons in the first place, while Bow Knight/Cupido is better off picking off fliers and not really having the Strength to deal too much chip damage. Great Knight can use 2 weapons to Paladinâs 1, but their statline is terrible for killing stuff in a timely fashion; Brave Weapons can help with their speed issue⌠if you didnât need Proficiency to use A-rank weapons to begin with. Avenir is a more close example; despite being locked to one unit, it has a mostly similar statline, except with A-Lances and B-Swords; against non-Proficient Paladins, it stacks up quite decently as a class due to having extra variety without losing too much damage; against S-rank Paladins, however, the problems start becoming apparent. Venemous is better for nuking with Override, while investment into Silver weapons to make them compare to S-rank could just be spent on something else, or making that S-rank even better. Brionac is even 1-2 range, if you can make a Lance Paladin into a juggernaut.
In all honesty, I hate vanilla GBA cavaliers. They have higher movement, can manipulate the weapon triangle too easily and are always powerful (not forgetting to mention that they are arguably one of the most common classes youâll have, they are always the class with the most representatives in their games).
So yeah, giving them only one weapon type is preferable, since they still possess good rescue utility no matter how garbage their stats are.
If anything, Knights should be the one to get 2 Weapon Types, they have poor movement, low speed, bad resistance and get folded by armorslaying weaponry. These are way too many disadvantages and weaknesses to bother with them.
While not doing the same mistakes vanilla FE does with Armor Knights does the trick in making them useful, giving them 2 Weapon Types to make them even better in their tanking role by manipulating the Weapon Triangle is a lot more preferable to me, and gives the player more of a reason to field them over some other units.
tl;dr: Cavs already have too many strengths, they deserve a nerf, knights have too many weaknesses, they deserve a buff
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Like I said before, Iâm not against nerfing Cavaliers, I more against the way that people does it.
And I do agree with this, but making multiples of the same class is just the best solution (a.k.a Sword Cab, Lance Cab, Axe Cab).
Just make ONE class, thatâs weapon lock (probably to only Lances).
THATâS WHAT IâM SAYING!!!
Nah, keep 2 weapon cavs. Just because LTCers prefer a specific class doesnât mean you need to nerf it. Yes maybe cavs are more powerful than other t1s cause of the 2 weapons, high move, canto, and decent stats. But you know what? They are fun. As game designers, we should look for solutions to make other classes more fun, rather than kneecapping the good ones for being good. I enjoy the armor knight 2 weapons as well, makes the classes (cavs and knights) that are canonically knights feel more, well knightly, in that they are highly trained warriors. Of course they should be proficient in more weapons than some commoner that picked up a sword and is now calling themself a âmercenary.â
Besides, there are other ways to nerf cavs from game design, without touching their class at all.
I try to implement these things in my game, such asâŚ
Map design: You can make your maps favor certain class you know. Make a shortcut through a mountain that you can only get through by crossing some green mountain tiles. (Cavs cannot enter these tiles, most infantry can.)
I have a map that does this, another one where you arrive to the chapter on 2 ships. One ship lands on a dock, the other lands on a beach. Youâll have a moment as a player where you realize, âMan this sand would suck for my mounted units, what if I put them on the other ship in battle preps.â
Availability: My hack has the Christmas cavs. Thats it. No Lowens, or Trents, Noahs, and Zelots in chapter 7. Nope. Jagen is not a paladin either. The next cavs you get are a prepromoted paladin and great knight way later in the second half of the game. You get your awsome sword swinginâ javelin chuckinâ cavs, but if they die wellâŚ
Keeping your quarterbacks alive will feel more rewarding. (Why am I making sport analogies?Weâre nerds.)
(Now you do get an early nomad and troubadour too, so your cavs arenât completely lonely, but thats besides the point.)
Weapon ranks: Iâm of the opinion that the christmas cavs should have E in one weapon and D in the other. Immediately gives the two units some distinction. Depending on the length of your game, you should also nerf the weapon xp needed per level. FE8s weapon ranks are pretty fast cause the game is rather short, especially compared to FE6. Now that cav with D in lances feels like your âlance cavâ while still being allowed to have fun and use a sword if you want to work extra for the rank. Vice versa for the âsword cavâ too.
7 Likes
I like them, but theyâd be better if the weapon triangle werenât so same-y as it is.
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