I cannot effing stand the FE8 GBA Skill System!

did you guys hear that The Last Promise slept with his cousin Dream of Five? Scandalous

you’re right on this. a buddy and i chatted super briefly but he said the term I’m looking for is “cognitive load” “the amount of information the player has to keep in mind at once to make informed decisions”.
easier to understand skills like distant counter and vantage and whatnot, which was more what i was getting at.

also yes to ppl talking about scaling existing skills back so they fit better with GBA.
Rally Strength gives +4 str which is fucking epic for a long time. But in awakening/fates/3ds, skill caps are WAAAAY higher than 31. So as you go on, rallies start to lose their steam in those games. in gba, since growths are also lower generally, this temporarily really good skill stays great early on and has more staying power.

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it’s ok fam just make the enemy boss’s prf 1-2 range

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tbf +4 to STR/SPD/DEF is still way too high in Fates and can lead to some broken stat stacking that takes a steamy dump over the game.

Granted I don’t really like Rallying in general since you’re basically giving up an action to help another unit juggernaut harder, vs something like Spurs or Support Bonuses where you still need to have a unit tag along into the fray of combat if someone’s to benefit from those bonuses.

That’s why Laslow is the best unit.
The rallys stack, and his personal skill stacks with the large potential collection of rallys he can get. Especially with the DLC only Rally Spectrum. He creates his own meta.

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(it was me)

The game design term is “cognitive load”, how much mental effort the player uses just to engage with the game, before they can even start making interesting decisions and strategies. Most importantly, high load can cause frustration and anxiety in the player, or lead to impulsive decision making because working through every detail stops being fun. (You also don’t want load too low, which can lead to boredom, but this is effectively never a concern when modifying an existing game)

As a clear demonstration, imagine if there were 40 different weapon types. The hundreds of matchups make remembering which ones have advantage against which take much more effort and slow down play, having a higher cognitive load, compared to 6 or 7 weapon types.

In terms of decreasing load, for skills you could obviously have less of them, or less per unit. But, you could also use things like the UX systems Ghast mentioned in the first post, where the game more readily lets you check what skills do or reminds you which apply. Another possible way is using theming to make the connections between things more obvious and memorable. Pokemon’s 18 type chart is much more complex than FE’s weapon types, but leveraging interactions like ‘water beats fire’ and ‘electricity can’t hurt ground’ make much of the type chart more intuitive.

Using 7x as example, there are a lot of skills to keep track of and many original ones the players can’t have already learned from previous games, so I took several steps to reduce cognitive load and let the player focus on their tactical play:
-Each unit only has a few skills, generally one in their base class and a second after promotion (and in the first few chapters the player’s trainee units don’t have any).
-On top of that, the skills for tier 1 classes are on the simpler side, and are usually shared by multiple classes: light weight infantry like Myrms and Archers have the same skill, heavy weight Mercs and Fighters have the same skill, all the cavalry have canto, etc. You see them more often making them quicker to learn, and associate them with the utility that class of unit provides.
-Then, the more powerful and notable tier 2 skills define their classes, and the player can get used to them one at a time once they’re familiar with the earlier skills.
-Some of the more unique skills that have less obvious effects on the combat preview screen will have some visible indication on the map itself. The skills that have a passive aura affecting nearby units will tint the area around the unit, similar to Kishuna’s anti magic zone. The command mastery skills (Astra, Luna, etc) have to charge up over time, and when they’re ready the map sprites’s black outline will flicker white.
-And there aren’t any personal skills, so if you see a Fighter, regardless of team or whether they’re generic, you have a baseline of what to expect. Same with a Soldier or Mage or whatever.

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the thing that annoys me with support bonuses in gba is how hard they are to see lol. if you wanna take a page out of RD and 3H, the whole linked-allies thing which shows who is giving what bonuses based on who is in combat range would be a pretty nifty add-on to hacks. I think even i’d use it. but a lot of hacks don’t have supports so honestly. prob not

you DM’d me so i thought maybe you didn’t want to be mentioned or sth :sweat_smile:

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Don’t mean to take up more space than necessary in this thread, but holy damn, welcome back to the forums. Two years is a long break from posting, even if you’ve been lurking.

To pretend like I have something more to contribute, I generally agree. It’s entirely possible for someone to get used to the system. I think that’s why a lot of people used a lot of skills in the MAFC submissions, since the assumption is already made those playing the submissions are already well-acquainted with the skillsystems skills.

A lot of RPGs thrive on making things more and more complex as time goes on, and Fire Emblem is no exception. The more “flavor” you introduce as you go on, the more interesting it gets, and just as how boredom is creating by having load too low, load never growing also creates boredom, as well as load starting high and maintaining a high level of stress on the player can make the title simply frustrating to play. None of these are desirable, so it’s understandable that it’s difficult to strike the right balance.

Inevitably, just like everything else, the right balance can pay off when mixed in with other design choices that support it. A skill cannot “good” or “bad” in a vaccuum, only theoretically better or worse than another skill. Skills shouldn’t be used because it’d be cool, but because it’d have something to add. Imagine Thracia 776 with a massive amount of skills. It’d be more things to keep track of on top of the existing mechanics, potentially suffocating the player and creating and a bit of a hell. Yet, it uses skills regardless, because it limits itself to only what it deems necessary.

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Overall, when it comes to skills, I’ve always been drawn away from the idea. The earlier FEs (especially FE3) had my attention captivated about a year or so ago. About now, I’ve warmed up to the idea of having skills in a FE fangame, but many have drawn my ire. Proc skills are among my least favorite, specifically any skills that have a percent chance of occurring (no matter how high or low the chance is). My favorite skills are ones that can be both utilized by the player and have uses in most situations. Hacks and fangames can be designed around the latter, not the former. Overuse of proc skills ends up making most gameplay feel random and chips away at the choice players have, since there’s no way to determine when the skill will happen unless you’re looking at one of those RN rolls.

I don’t like the overabundance of skills the skill system has, but I believe that the large amount of skills it has is more for variety among hacks that use it. If the list was indeed smaller, then many hackers would have less variety for skills to pick. I’d say it’s more up to the skills chosen for players and enemies by the hacker that matters, not the skill system. It’s a tool that can be used correctly, incorrectly, or not at all. I suppose my issue is that everybody is using it, then. You rarely ever see a hack or project that doesn’t incorporate them in some way. I’d say that a minimalist usage of skills with few (or none) proc skills is best. One or two per unit, with enemies having few skills (not more than one if they even have them) unless they’re bosses. This minimizes the amount of checking a hack/game requires, saves time, and allows the creator to put more emphasis on non-skill areas such as unit placement or map design.

One more thing I have to mention here. No matter how flawed or poor a hack or fangame is, it is not worth laughing at or meming about. The community seems to think that it’s okay to laugh and make fun of games that have poor or flawed design or are otherwise poorly made. I think this is counterproductive, and wastes everyone’s time. Go to the game’s thread and actually notify the creator(s) about exactly what they did right and what they did wrong (constructively, I may add). I would hazard a guess that everybody would benefit from a project being better than it used to be. No matter how poorly made a hack or game is, it still deserves respect.

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I’m not quite sure there exists a more suitable hyperbole for a hacking scene where one particular community is so dominant that deciding not to use it’s resources is simply not an option, all code-based resources exist in the peripheral of it’s skill system, and where all the significant channels for publicity are narrowly controlled by the same people.

But then again I’m replying to a thread made by a popular FEtuber, so I’m not exactly barking up the right tree here.

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can you explain this more simply? do you mean like, the community decided that skills would be the next big thing and hackers don’t want to try other options?

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Not exactly.

There exist a lot of very interesting methods of fleshing a hack out that are freely available to the public, but they are massively underutilized because they aren’t compatible with the skill system. This isn’t really a fault of the skill system itself but I also don’t think the design methodology particularly helps in that matter either.

Most notably, the skill system and FEBuilder go hand in hand, because 7743 has openly stated that they want to prioritize skill system compatibility for future updates.

I would much prefer that the skill system be small and modual rather than the way it is now. Like how there are heroes movement skills that are separate from the skills system. As is, the system is very bloated and has too many unavoidable constraints even in the context of a hacker that wants just skills and nothing else.

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Keep in mind that the Skill System is designed to be extremely modular, and you CAN pick and choose anything you want to use. This is because it is designed for use with a buildfile, so naturally, it doesn’t play well with FEBuilder much of the time.

I don’t think this could be any more false.
Anything can be made to work with the Skill System. Anything along the lines of “it doesn’t work well with FEB” is moot because that’s not what it’s designed for.

The only “unavoidable constraints” are hard limits imposed by the machine. If you don’t like these “limits”, try… I don’t know… using the method that was intended?

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I’m well aware that the skill system is designed for use with a buildfile. You simply can’t just throw in something that’s intended to act as a massively editable system of game mechanics on to a GBA cartridge without having to make compromises, and it’s weird that you would claim otherwise considering your involvement and deep understanding of it. The skill systems STR/MAG split requires ExModularSave, for example, and many of it’s oddities don’t play nicely with a lot of the existing event commands. This is without even mentioning it’s numerous bugs (Canto+ alone probably comes with more bugs than ten other patches put together).

Either I (and apparently most people) understand very little about the skill system, or you’re overstating it’s flexibility. Like no, I don’t care if some of these limits come from the hardware itself and not the system, pushing things to their limits isn’t something I would consider a selling point.

honestly based on the demographics of hacking and how few people do asm, i don’t think i’d consider it a stretch to say most people don’t understand how skill system works

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Um… no? You can edit literally anything you like. Really no compromise exists unless it’s mandated by the machine.

I don’t see how a system which has “modular” in its name and is known as a very stable hack is a roadblock.

I patiently await specifics and reports on these numerous bugs.

I don’t see your point, but refuting these claims seems necessary.

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So ExModularSave isn’t a good example, then? Then the unit action rework? Whatever wizardry is used to get magic level ups to work properly (which is apparently complex enough that it requires rewritting growth getters)? Battle round calculations being entirely different?

…Wait, are you implying that you haven’t been getting reports on bugs and that you aren’t aware of most of the issues? Because I find that hard to believe considering the high number of skills that are straight up not functional.

It’s actually surprisingly rare how often people will report bugs found in skills system to the relevant people.

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Oh boy, i read a bit of this and took alot of mental notes for my own hack, yes i do plan to add skills in the game but i never really wanted it to be over welming like fe16 maddening mode or some dumb stuff like that. I hope i can properly implement it so it enhances the gameplay rather than “oh look shiny skills!1!1!” in my romhack

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Without trying to unpack anything else in this thread


Edit: Discourse previews are bad, this is the issues page for the skill system GitHub repository.

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Lunge one ought be closed. I brought it up with Sme for my hack a while back and then they resolved it.