Hubworlds in Fire Emblem - Opinions and Wishes (MyCastle, Monastery, Somniel)

Hubworlds have become increasingly more popular in the hacking community. I have only played Frozen Throes and Cerulean Coast thus far but know there are more out there. Obviously due to the hardware difference, these games handle it different than the Mainline FE Games. But also different from one another, which makes it an interesting topic to discuss. Both about the main games as well as how you as creators and players of the fangames or other SRPGs you played tackled the Hubworld.

How the maingames do it:

Ever since Fates we have a gurantee that we always have to visit a hubworld in between chapters. This comes with pros and cons. The only modern game without such a mechanic is Shadows of Valentia, which is a remake though and instead took us inside of Dungeons and villages, the latter in a Visual Novel Style. MyCastle was small and easy to walk through, SoVs approach made every new area something you wanted to explore and some of them were pretty small and quickly done.

At first I saw Three Houses approach as a logical step in development, since it takes the 3D View from Fates and makes the whole place actually explorable from that PoV. Nowadays I dislike hubworlds because:

A- It takes (me) too long to do everything that seems important to help on your journey.
B- It lacks the multiplayer features MyCastle offered.
C- While with clever routing both an optimal playing as well as a casual player who does multiple playthroughs can make a routine on what to skip in order to solve things as fast as possible, I deem it bad gamedesign if the best solution to solve problems caused by it is to ignore them - Why is it there in the first place?

Three Houses was built around the Hubworld so much that the story has suffered from it. There were logical flaws (which isn’t bad if the game makes up for it) and over the course of a 80+ h playthrough things became repetetive. But, you can solve it very easy by spamming the option to eat food with your students - its even the most rewarding action! So compared to the latest hubworld it seems a lot faster for me at least. A while ago I’d blame the hubworld for the lack of proper mapdesign, though now I think - They were more focused on how to make the hubworld work, rather than implementing it in a game that has entirely different gameplay. Its the execution that was bad, not the hubworld itself. They clearly wanted to do something with it, every NPC and character has new dialouge for each chapter and it feels lively enough.

Engage has the opposite problem. Here they focused on the core gameplay and failed to implement a good hubworld. Everything that made Three Houses Hubworld special is missing in Engage, and on to of that its very impracticle. For the most important parts of the hubworld (arena and the ring chamber) you have to go into a loading zone. And in between certain actions are both real load times and waiting time. The latter being → waiting for character animations and lines you heard often enough, waiting for the moment you can skip the battle, waiting for the “Win/Lose” + Exp gain animations, waiting for the moment you can skip the bond dialouge (or listening to it), skipping through the unlockables for every single level, repeating this a sceond time if you want to bond past Level 5, onwards. This is a process I think many players have to do multiple times at least a few times during their run because this is the best way to inherit skills to your unit. It is a normal thing that shouldn’t take that long, as it helps you to strengthen your units. Then there is also the Sommie with its buggy animation which at least in the start is important to get bond fragments (later on I ignore it due to time). All of it feels strangely unpolished and with a lack of thought compared to Fates especially. Like, why have custom clothes, if you can’t even use them 90% of the time? And why do you spend the most valueable recource on it? I also say that cooking and the support actions are important, though the latter can be skipped and both aren’t as time consuming. The place is also very huge and everything except the shops is scattered around. You spend easily 20+ minutes if you’re not speedrunning or just wanna game without planning out every step. We are humans, humans sometimes change their mind and remember there are other things they could do… And thats before you even get to buy equipment. There are so many tools but too many in total so it starts to become work, even without the loading zones.

To be fair, in Three Houses you also got to warp you all over the place since its very huge as well. However I’d argue that it feels not as slow as in engage, though this could be because I am more familiar to Garreg Mach than Somniel atm so I won’t make a judgement here.

My personal wishes for a good FE hubworld are:

-Not just one Hubworld.
Engage let us explore every map once we’ve beaten the chapter which means they can fit more than one explorable map. Fill these maps with shops and rumors that unlock quests, maybe even place recruitable characters for later or connect multiple places via sidestories. If there isn’t a nearby city or village, let the army camp in whatever location they are in. That way they could even return some form of customization as in MyCastle. I want the hubworlds to enhance the feeling of a journey and a camp would be mobile and important places like big capitals or even ruins of a battlefield would invite the player to explore. If its always new, it doesn’t become repetetive, you might even want to return at some point. And while I don’t mind the hubworld to be in a different pocket universe, why not be creative and let our crew travel in an airship if it needs to fly? Not to mention that some places might not be revisitable due to certain events which adds strategical descisions as in the limited shop offers of Radiant Dawn…

-Less is more.
Its enough if there are shops and a training area or something. Presents kinda misses the point if they spawn very often and you have to give like 20 or so per character. Instead let them do jobs that are done offscreen to let them bond with each other (hunting for meat, fishing for fish, training sessions for exp). Minigames could be extras in the main menu but since they never unlock mandatory stuff I would prolly ignore them. Just don’t tie them to important loot. However, if they have lots of ideas, tie that with my first wish → give different options depending on where you are. Help farming on a village, go into a fancy restaurant in a town, go hunting if you are in a forest, search water when in the desert. The options are limitless, just don’t overrun the player.

-The world shouldn’t be bigger than nessecary.
Every single place should be reachable within seconds and not require long loading times. I’d prefer one longer wait time to load the whole thing after every chapter over many small loading times inside the hubworld. Including the mentioned skippable stuff. Try to make it so that the player doesn’t think that the 20 or so minutes they spent there felt like a waste of time. At best they should be just as fun and strategic as the main game. But not in terms of “How can I continue to play the game as fast as possible without losing out on things that feel mandatory?” And while the time you spent there should be as short as possible, it is more important that the time feels like fun rather than work. Its a difference if I have to skip through the same repeating things multiple times or if I move around items in the prep screen.

-If it doesn’t make sense to include a hubworld for the way the game is built: Don’t include one.
If its just there to be there, it does more harm than anything, especially if its executed poorly. A better solution (for me at least) would be to bring back the menu from the Tellius games. Everything here is like a big prep. menu but still different. It is enough - And if we still need to have a hubworld, give those who don’t want to interact much with it the option to use a menu. Again though, if you need a shortcut to make it bareable… Why is it even here?

-If FE4 Remake should ever happen, please leave it alone with hubworlds, let the castles stay menus, it seems like it fits at first but please, please don’t, it only sounds like fun until you realize that you’d have to stop in the middle of a giant chapter multiple times to do exploring and stuff.

What are your thoughts on hubworlds? What FE-like games with hubworlds have you played? What aspects about those do you like and dislike? I would include more fanmade examples but even the two I mentioned I couldn’t complete yet because my Backlog is terrible. And the only other SRPG with a hubworld that I completed is Stella Glow, which uses a menu.

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Honestly, you detailed it better than I ever could. As much as I write Fates off as among the worst of the FE titles; I have to admit the My Castle segments were snappy, they were quick, and they were fun. The only thing I’d change about it in the end is making it an actual place and not a pocket dimension in a future game. Like, hear me out:

In the early game of a future FE title which would go straight from chapter to chapter normally, you get an FE6/7 style sidequest that involves a small castle town overrun by brigands, thieves, etc; and you can choose to either save the town or move along and ignore them. If you do the sidequest, you obviously rout the bandits and thieves and free the Castle Town - and the people are grateful to the protagonist enough to make them the Lord of the town; and you unlock it as a hubworld.

At which point, instead of being taken from chapter to chapter immediately, you’re taken to the hubworld between chapters; and you get some benefits. Comparatively paltry amounts of gold that are recognized in world as taxes; traveling merchants hearing that the town is no longer deadly, and of course you can choose to build shops run by the town’s population whose members conveniently fill the necessary qualifications to fill those roles.

And maybe as the Lord of this small castle town, you get a couple sidequests every now and again that involve repairing or renovating places that are more rundown ala the Colony 6(?) reparations in any version of the first Xenoblade Chronicles.

Also I want the Fates Amiibo System back. I loved that shit.

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The Two Princesses hack has a base map between some chapters, but you cannot do much here (3 gorgon’s eggs and armoury/vendor, there is optional dungeon, but it’s just one map if i remember correctly)
I wonder if something like that can be used with more potential (more buildings, upgrading and stuff…)
For now the only thing i like about it that i can grind as much as i want before i go further.
The Code of Black Knghts has a nice interlude map between some chapters (it basically interacting (and it’s cool btw, has fates vibes) and shopping, but still…)
After interacting part is done there isn’t much to do.
The Hetja quest has a free movement and upgrading system. It was done really good, but it’s rogue like.
I think in hacks i would like to see base chapters with good hub area (fates style), with more interacting between allies (support…etc) and optional side quests.

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While I only played the first few chapters thus far this does apply to Cerulean Coast. The first Explore Map was a town where you have lots of things that you could do (and while I did all of them I don’t think you even should do all of it). And also conversations between units.

Give us a different city/village/place every few maps were we not only do hub stuff, but interact with the world/characters and learn more about it. Kinda like a standard jrpg city where we buy stuff, accept quests, etc.

Some notes:

  • Not after every map or it can become tedious. Only after a major turnpoint in the arc or freeing/conquering a big/important place. Otherwise between maps a small camp/menu should be enough

  • By quests i don’t mean boring fetch quests, but extra stuff to be done on story maps

  • Can be used for worldbuilding, character interactions and more!

Some hacks i’ve seen already some of that stuff.

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Egregious pace breakers should never be mandatory in video games. If the player is feeling bored after a few hours of Spyro or exhausted after a few hours of Dark Souls it’s not up to the developer to decide it’s time for a 10 minute ladder climb or a 1 minute elevator ride or a Mario Party minigame or some fishing necessary to grind gameplay stats. Sometimes you want to walk around the Monastery for a bit, saying hello to everyone, eating, training, and so on, and sometimes you want to get back to the gameplay but the game says no.

FE Fates had the right idea, just remove everything cringe about its implementation like the online features that break the intended difficulty and the pocket dimension outrealms deeprealms Rick and Morty/Hyperbolic Time Chamber nonsense. And remove everything RNG and remove Daily Rewards and infinite grindable resources, this isn’t a mobile game. It’s okay for it to be a Base Camp near our objective. I’d prefer that, it could change pallets depending on the biome, it’d be sick. No time-gated or RNG-based nonsense, people WILL reset on stream/edit the clock on stream to remove the randomness and time gates.

Build the camp to be well-designed and aesthetically pleasing and small, add a menu with instant teleports like in Splatoon so I don’t need to physically walk between stores but can if I want to (that way everyone appreciates it more instead of getting used to ignoring the tedium of travel), and make purchasing unlockables and moving them around something done in the hero’s private quarters like in Animal Crossing and the Secret Bases from Pokemon. Shoving all those Fates statues into a corner with a bunch of random crap surrounding them like dead trees and caltrops was not very aesthetic of me.

Wouldn’t it be cool if some of Fates’s sillier features were gated by cash like a book shop for buying Skills (no online necessary, reasonable skill purchases only) and an arena where you pay for the right to grind EXP by nonlethally fighting mercenaries and prize fighters, instead of gambling or the story-breaking “The character I’m playing would go out of his way to fight these monsters/bandits but for gameplay purposes the game becomes too easy if I do” moments?

“Do I spend my limited gold on Reclassing, Promoting, Arena Grinding, a Skill Book to enhance a certain character, or a Forged Weapon multiple characters could use?” sounds interesting to me. Maybe there could be units you can buy/hire? But that might be a step too far.

2 Likes

I agree that Fates arguably had the best implementation of the hub world. Everything’s tidy and packed together. It’s also part of the reason why I feel like Fates has a better implementation of the route split compared to 3H. Garreg Mach, for as much as fleshed out it is, tends to be very tedious. It doesn’t help that you essentially choose which route you pick at the very beginning of the game as opposed to the first third or something, with the only difference for a long time being which students you start out with it. That being said, don’t leave Engage out; it was cool to have a post-battle environment where you could talk with key characters and the occasional NPC, even though I feel like implementing one for every chapter isn’t always optimal. Then there’s Gaiden/SOV’s overworld. Yeah, I think it somewhat counts because there are plenty of towns with quests and shops. Everything’s spread out, but not too far away, and it does feel like a nice break to stop by a town.
Still, for all of the flack Garreg Mach tends to get, it does make me wonder: what if we fleshed out the system so that time itself is a resource? In one pretentious crackfic FE that I thought up, the story takes place over the course of a year, give or take, with major battles usually occurring every week or so. But every time an activity occurs, such as dungeon crawling, diplomacy, etc., time inevitably moves forward. Eventually, the player will have no choice but to proceed onto the main story since it is literally time to do so. Thus, the player will have to choose between certain activities that may or may not be available depending on the calendar time. For example, what if certain dungeons with special rewards are only available during a certain period of time, and embarking on one will leave little room to do the other? What if a certain traveling caravan travels into the area only at certain days and in certain regions that will require the player’s party to travel more quickly? Or maybe they can just take a nap and immediately skip to the next chapter in the story? The reason I thought of this is that my story partially has to do with destiny and inevitable fate, and so the flow of time plays a part in the unnerving nature of the journey. There would be plenty of options, even enough to maybe disorient the player, but that’s the point: to make the player (and heroes) feel some sense of regret. But that’s just me. I’m sure this crack system would still have some flaws regarding tedium and whatnot, even with a nap button.

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The only thing I want from a hub is being a menu. I’ve now gone through multiple implementations of hubs, including in games that are not FE, and my conclusion is that if I’m expected to perform a lot of tasks in the hub, I don’t want to walk around it all the time. I want to do it through a menu.

Berwick Saga does it, and I’m grateful that it does. I just don’t think walking around a hub adds much – if anything, it pads out the game length. You’re not even exploring a new location – you’re just treading the same paths over and over again.

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Lowkey I wouldn’t mind a hybrid of this (Base Menu with potential base exploring) if the base itself changed between chapters or if there was an actual incentive to do any exploring at all.

In this ground, I consider base segments being enhanced preparation screens would be the best way to handle them - potential overviews of the future fight’s minimap, easier trading/purchasing weapons, quick overview on supports and such, etc.

I believe it would be best if it could appeal to both sides - a direct approach for those who just want to get it on without being punished for not wanting to pad the runtime, whilst allowing ones who want to experience a varied base experience with small events and characterization to spend time on the base.

To this point - if at any point any player, be it one skipping base segments or enjoying them want to view a scene they skipped/want to watch again from base, some sort of Library/Gallery function for those in the base wouldn’t be misplaced.

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For actual Mainline Fire Emblem: While I don’t love all the activities in hubs in modern Fire Emblem games, I think they do provide a useful change of pace for people who aren’t super invested SRPG players. It’s an expected feature at this point and it doesn’t seem like it can reasonably be cut. I would like to hub activities massively reduced or eliminated on Maddening(or whatever the highest difficulty is called). People playing on Maddening are invested players who are most likely not playing the game for the first time so the activities are way more likely to become chores, and reducing the resources available to the player(so that it’s much harder to complete your broken builds) is a good way to make Maddening harder without inflating enemy stats to absurd levels.

For ROM hacks: I think a menu where you can access the useful features is good enough. The hub is a reasonable place to put extra dialogue to flesh out the characters/world without making the main story too bloated and let the player decide how much text they want to read. I don’t think developing minigames or other activities is good use of dev resources - if you care enough to download and play an FE romhack, you probably really like core Fire Emblem gameplay and aren’t looking for a break from it.

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