How often do Jagens get canon story deaths mid-game, ensuring the moment their usefulness is supposed to fall off (or earlier) will be the moment they fall off this mortal coil?

Design
21

I concur, there seems to be a slowly growing desire in some to try to desperately over complicate things lately.

my, uh, opinion on this is, if you so desperately want a Jagen that should/has-to die, the only way it can realistically work is if the Jagen in question has something that either prevents them from gaining EXP of any kind, has a mandatory Mercy effect meaning he can’t kill anything that isn’t already at 1 hp, or has wary fighter baked into him.

however that just makes a Jagen that isn’t really all that useful, and just forget the whole savior skill. rescue as a mechanic gets its value severely overblown. honestly I’m more perterbed with them always being a damned paladin.

1 Like
22

Yup, General Jagens all the way.

23

My game isn’t struggling to balance a Jagen, my story requires a heroic sacrifice to take place. I’m balancing my game around the story.

24

Anyone here remember Pankraz from Dragon Quest V?

He was your father. You start the game as a child playing games and going on adventures. You can’t even die during the tutorial thanks to Pankraz. He’s your safety net. You can always rely on Pankraz.

And then (spoilers for one of the oldest twists in gaming) the baddies hold you hostage, making him unable to protect himself or you. The baddies killed him, enslaved you, you escaped and went out for revenge, you married a woman, you had a kid, that kid was the legendary destined chosen one of legendary destined legend, you became a statue, you were sold, it took a while before you were found and saved, you even saw another family go through moments of family life you should have had with your family, and eventually just as your father did his best to be a father, you do your best to be a father while taking out the baddies. Ah, what a masterpiece.

When Pankraz is killed by the bad guys, you play as Pankraz, unable to do anything but watch as your HP is brought down by the baddies. Only gaming can do this. Sure, cinema can show a powerless hero. But only gaming can make you press buttons in a RPG that would normally let you fight, and tell you “No”.

Had gaming ever done this before? Sure, there were sad moments here and there where named characters die. But had gaming ever had the korones to make the player character go through such miserable tragedy, and at the same time, validate the game’s marriage and birthing system by making your kid the all-important only chosen one and not just another unit?

Pankraz wasn’t killed off in Dragon Quest V because the developers weren’t sure how to balance a Jagen. It wasn’t just done because cinema and novels and comics all played with the idea of mentor death and parent death for centuries before the first video game was made.

Dragon Quest V has been called “The Citizen Kane of Gaming” by somebody who argued that, just as Citizen Kane did things only cinema can do to enhance itself, Dragon Quest V did things only gaming can do to enhance itself.

5 Likes
25

Pankraz is a guest character that you don’t even get to control. DQ5 manages to avoid the player feeling like they’ve been robbed by:
-Pankraz is never even yours. He’s a guest party member you can’t command.
-He dies in the first like five hours out of 30-50.
-Permadeath isn’t a thing in Dragon Quest, so the player isn’t primed to view it as a gameplay thing that Pankraz died.

If there isn’t permadeath and it’s early, fine. But it’s all about presentation. Code of the Black Knights does the thing you’re asking about and it’s regarded well, but that’s because the player expects batshit things to happen by then.

3 Likes
26

My pov:

Bad FE player: wow this unit is so strong! I’m gonna use them the whole game!

Mid-level FE player: this unit steals all my exp! I’m going to avoid using them.

High-level FE player: wow this unit is so strong! I’m going to use them the whole game!

At least this has been my experience. I’ve gone through a similar arc pertaining to letting player units die (letting people die, let no one die, back to letting everyone die)

As for balance, yeah jagens tend to lean too far to the strong side.

5 Likes
27

Not sure if I should bump this thread or make a new thread, but…

If the player lost the Jagen due to plot, and a new strong old man Jagen character joined later on, that could replace the gameplay tool without replacing the character. Characters could still mourn the loss of the old man, the father figure, the living symbol of feeling protected and safe, while the gameplay function comes back for the sake of people whose strategies don’t work without him. Maybe one Jagen could be related to the other, for bonus tragic points. Everyone can mourn the death of your father figure, even his father. Perhaps the Jagen’s replacement is stronger so he falls off less, or weaker so his function falls off faster, but hey, it’s an idea.

1 Like
28

Mods probably don’t like it, but I think bumps which add something thought provoking to a topic are pretty cool.

Tales of Symphonia actually does this. Early-game they give you a mentor unit who’s a little overpowered and kinda carries your team, story events unfold and they end up leaving your team during a traumatic event. Soon after a new unit joins your team who has the exact same stats abilities & I believe actually carries over the character data. The unit power balance is such that this new guy doesn’t feel super strong & works as a more general utility unit (like how I guess fe paladins would work if they were well balanced)

I think the big thing is you generally don’t want the player to feel like you ripped a unit away from them which they invested time/items/experience into. If I recall correctly, almost all of the forced unit deaths/alliance changes in mainline FE are for units which are only on your team for 1 chapter.

29

Big fan of Dragon Quest here but i had to look it up and FF4 came out before DQ5 and had a few (take your characters away and then give them back except the old wizard) moments so i feel those may have more impact then your MCs dad since you cant play as him but i do see your point.

Personally im the gamer that makes sure everyone i can gets recruited and survives so i dont like the idea of taking my control away by killing my unit, even if theyre no longer “useful”. But if the story shows that it deserves it, then i can be a little more open minded.