How often do Jagens get canon story deaths mid-game, ensuring the moment their usefulness is supposed to fall off (or earlier) will be the moment they fall off this mortal coil?

Design
21

I concur, there seems to be a slowly growing desire in some to try to desperately over complicate things lately.

my, uh, opinion on this is, if you so desperately want a Jagen that should/has-to die, the only way it can realistically work is if the Jagen in question has something that either prevents them from gaining EXP of any kind, has a mandatory Mercy effect meaning he can’t kill anything that isn’t already at 1 hp, or has wary fighter baked into him.

however that just makes a Jagen that isn’t really all that useful, and just forget the whole savior skill. rescue as a mechanic gets its value severely overblown. honestly I’m more perterbed with them always being a damned paladin.

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22

Yup, General Jagens all the way.

23

My game isn’t struggling to balance a Jagen, my story requires a heroic sacrifice to take place. I’m balancing my game around the story.

24

Anyone here remember Pankraz from Dragon Quest V?

He was your father. You start the game as a child playing games and going on adventures. You can’t even die during the tutorial thanks to Pankraz. He’s your safety net. You can always rely on Pankraz.

And then (spoilers for one of the oldest twists in gaming) the baddies hold you hostage, making him unable to protect himself or you. The baddies killed him, enslaved you, you escaped and went out for revenge, you married a woman, you had a kid, that kid was the legendary destined chosen one of legendary destined legend, you became a statue, you were sold, it took a while before you were found and saved, you even saw another family go through moments of family life you should have had with your family, and eventually just as your father did his best to be a father, you do your best to be a father while taking out the baddies. Ah, what a masterpiece.

When Pankraz is killed by the bad guys, you play as Pankraz, unable to do anything but watch as your HP is brought down by the baddies. Only gaming can do this. Sure, cinema can show a powerless hero. But only gaming can make you press buttons in a RPG that would normally let you fight, and tell you “No”.

Had gaming ever done this before? Sure, there were sad moments here and there where named characters die. But had gaming ever had the korones to make the player character go through such miserable tragedy, and at the same time, validate the game’s marriage and birthing system by making your kid the all-important only chosen one and not just another unit?

Pankraz wasn’t killed off in Dragon Quest V because the developers weren’t sure how to balance a Jagen. It wasn’t just done because cinema and novels and comics all played with the idea of mentor death and parent death for centuries before the first video game was made.

Dragon Quest V has been called “The Citizen Kane of Gaming” by somebody who argued that, just as Citizen Kane did things only cinema can do to enhance itself, Dragon Quest V did things only gaming can do to enhance itself.

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25

Pankraz is a guest character that you don’t even get to control. DQ5 manages to avoid the player feeling like they’ve been robbed by:
-Pankraz is never even yours. He’s a guest party member you can’t command.
-He dies in the first like five hours out of 30-50.
-Permadeath isn’t a thing in Dragon Quest, so the player isn’t primed to view it as a gameplay thing that Pankraz died.

If there isn’t permadeath and it’s early, fine. But it’s all about presentation. Code of the Black Knights does the thing you’re asking about and it’s regarded well, but that’s because the player expects batshit things to happen by then.

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26

My pov:

Bad FE player: wow this unit is so strong! I’m gonna use them the whole game!

Mid-level FE player: this unit steals all my exp! I’m going to avoid using them.

High-level FE player: wow this unit is so strong! I’m going to use them the whole game!

At least this has been my experience. I’ve gone through a similar arc pertaining to letting player units die (letting people die, let no one die, back to letting everyone die)

As for balance, yeah jagens tend to lean too far to the strong side.

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27

Not sure if I should bump this thread or make a new thread, but…

If the player lost the Jagen due to plot, and a new strong old man Jagen character joined later on, that could replace the gameplay tool without replacing the character. Characters could still mourn the loss of the old man, the father figure, the living symbol of feeling protected and safe, while the gameplay function comes back for the sake of people whose strategies don’t work without him. Maybe one Jagen could be related to the other, for bonus tragic points. Everyone can mourn the death of your father figure, even his father. Perhaps the Jagen’s replacement is stronger so he falls off less, or weaker so his function falls off faster, but hey, it’s an idea.

1 Like
28

Mods probably don’t like it, but I think bumps which add something thought provoking to a topic are pretty cool.

Tales of Symphonia actually does this. Early-game they give you a mentor unit who’s a little overpowered and kinda carries your team, story events unfold and they end up leaving your team during a traumatic event. Soon after a new unit joins your team who has the exact same stats abilities & I believe actually carries over the character data. The unit power balance is such that this new guy doesn’t feel super strong & works as a more general utility unit (like how I guess fe paladins would work if they were well balanced)

I think the big thing is you generally don’t want the player to feel like you ripped a unit away from them which they invested time/items/experience into. If I recall correctly, almost all of the forced unit deaths/alliance changes in mainline FE are for units which are only on your team for 1 chapter.

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29

Big fan of Dragon Quest here but i had to look it up and FF4 came out before DQ5 and had a few (take your characters away and then give them back except the old wizard) moments so i feel those may have more impact then your MCs dad since you cant play as him but i do see your point.

Personally im the gamer that makes sure everyone i can gets recruited and survives so i dont like the idea of taking my control away by killing my unit, even if theyre no longer “useful”. But if the story shows that it deserves it, then i can be a little more open minded.

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30

Many users have expressed the sentiment “I don’t want my character ripped away from me, not after I invested time and EXP into him”, but what if the death flags telegraphed heavily that you shouldn’t invest into the character? He might even say something like “I don’t want to see you kids hiding in a corner while I do all the fighting on my own. I’m an old man, and I’m not getting any younger or healthier. You’ll need real battle experience if you ever want to survive without me. [colortext=red]I won’t be around to protect you kids forever.[/colortext]”

There might even be a special bit of code added to the Dracoshield you get in Chapter 1 to ensure if you try using it on him, he says he doesn’t want it, and tells you the best possible choices for it instead, ultimately leaving the choice up to you.

Some maps could even prevent you from giving him every kill. In one map he might stop to watch after a certain point. Or only watch until things seem bad enough for him, as a green unit who doesn’t gain EXP, to step in. One Castle map might put him on the left side of the castle, killing everyone himself, while all your other units are on the right side forced to fight enemies carefully.

Surely this (plus the character could be in a promoted class at a high level ensuring he gets basically 0 or 1 exp per battle) would keep players from feeling scammed if they do try investing into him at the expense of other characters, and keep them from intentionally softlocking themselves for the sake of some “softlock yourself%” youtube channel challenge.

3 Likes
31

I’m in the camp that thinks Fate’s real Jagen is Corrin’s Dragonstone.

Even if Gunter were aesthetically a fit, bro gets torn in half by the first axe user in Rev when you do get him back (at least in Lunatic.)

32

mm, this got away from me again, sorry.

Then the death has no narrative meaning or weight because it was spoiled, thus doing it was not pointful. As a writer, if you tell me that There’s A Monster At The End Of This Book*, and then there is, in fact, A Monster at the end of the book, congratulations, even a child can tell you that wasn’t interesting as a pay-off.

I have made this exact complaint multiple times in reference to one story whose author perpetually revealed this spoiler yet also called their game very serious; but last time I complained about how choosing to do this ruins the story, I got brigaded, so it goes un-named.

As a good contrasting example, look at Shadows of Valentia, where Lukas berates Alm into giving the other villagers a chance to prove their combat ability being important for them to learn how to fight. To at least let them get the last blow. This carries all the same notes without that problem.

For those who don’t know of this excellent children’s book;

the MONSTER at the end of this Book, starring LOVABLE, FURRY OLD GROVER (who, on this cover has his hand raised and is saying "Hello, everybodeee!" with a soft grin.)

(boilerplate title page, ie. copyright information, that it’s written by Jon Stone and illustrated by Mike Smollin, "This educational book was created in cooperation with Children’s Television Workshop, producers of SESAME STREET etc)
Grover: This is a very dull page. What is on the next page?

The rest of the book is 2 page spreads, w/ BIG MULTICOLOR TEXT, pink text, and normal text.

1-2:

Grover: WHAT DID THAT SAY?
Grover: On the first page, what did that say? Did that say there will be a Monster at the end of this book???
Grover: IT DID? Oh, I am so scared of Monsters!!!
(Grover stands aloof with hands raised in front of him.)

3-4:

Grover: SHHH Listen, I have an idea. If you doo not turn any pages, we will never get to the end of this book.
Grover: And that is good, because there is a Monster at the end of this book.
Grover: So please do not turn the page. (Yellow bubble, small text)
(Grover is presumably lying on the floor, holding a hand up to his face with one finger raised.)

5-6:

Grover: YOU TURNED THE PAGE!
(The entirety of the other page is dedicated to his over-exaggerated reaction.)

7-8:

Grover: Maybe you do not understand. You see, turning pages will bring us to the end of the book, and there is a Monster at the end of this book…
(Grover stands with his arms crossed in front of himself, holding rope that is binding around the pages in the background with all sorts of knots.)
Grover: … but this will stop you from turning pages. See? I am tying the pages together soo you cannot …

9-10, which I cannot describe adequately:
image

11-12:

Grover: There! I, Grover, am nailing this page to the next one so that you will not be able to turn it, and we will not get any closer to the Monster at the end of this book.
(Scattered around are various woodworking tools, particularly two saws, multiple rulers, brackets, and a box full of wooden planks. Grover is hammering nails into haphazardly placed boards against the ‘page’ background of the page, accompanied by a variety of sound effects: BONK BAM BING! KLONK BING BONK.

13-14:

(Grover has a hand up in the air and his other covering his face. The background pages are now torn, and there’s dust clouds all around.)
Grover: ALL RIGHT! ALL RIGHT! ALL RIGHT!
Grover: Do you know that every time you turn another page… you not only get us closer to the MONSTER at the end of this book, but you make a terrible mess!
(“A terrible mess” is in bubble letters blue text, not pink semi-bold like Monster is and has been.)

15-16:

Grover: This will stop you from turning pages. A heavy, thick, solid, strong brick wall. I would just like to see you TRY to turn this page.
(Below, there is, indeed, a brick wall, as well as a toolbox, water bucket, bin of mortar with a hoe at the bottom of it; on the other side Grover is holding a trowel and laying another brick on top of the wall - below is a brush and glue can as well as a rake, and a number of loose bricks.)

17-18:

(The turned page is significantly torn, the bricks ripping through it. The wall is now just a disheveled pile of bricks, with the bin, glue, hoe, rake all looking damaged and sticking out of this pile - as is Grover’s hand!
Grover: Do you know that you are very strong?
(Unlike other bubbles, this text is small where the bubble is very large, leaving a lot of white space.)

19-20:

Grover: The next page is the -end- of this book, and there is a MONSTER at the end of this book.
Grover: Oh, I am so SCARED!
(Grover stands in the middle, hands brought together in front of him.)
Grover: PLEASE do not turn the page.
Grover: PLEASE
Grover: PLEASE
Grover: PLEASE

21-22:

Grover: Well, look at that! This is the end of the book, and the only one here is …

ME

(This ‘me’ is complete with hearts and two little arrows, and is in a rounded font. Many of the other pieces of huge text have been in slightly pointy ones!)
Grover: I, lovable, furry old Grover, am the Monster at the end of this book.
Grover: And you were so SCARED!
(Behind Grover, who has his arms crossed daintily, almost hugging his shoulders, lies in big bold yellow, ‘THE END’, with the D cut off.
Grover: I told you and told you there was nothing to be afraid of.

23:

(Grover has his hands raised, covering his head and face somewhat.)
(Grover, thinking, in small font, “Oh, I am so embarrassed…”)

If spread 21-22 had instead been of some actual abomination disgusting creature, the whole book would be completely uninteresting and unmemorable. It would be boring: There is a scary monster and we are scared of it once we see it?

Horror stories use a very distinct methodology of making things feel scary, describing the oppression, terror, fear that is felt - and it is those descriptions of emotions that give these stories value. This doesn’t just apply to emotional parts of works, but it’s the same.

This has been done multiple times in the past and it’s actually incredibly boring and torturous because it doesn’t do anything except make you sit there while the AI is going at it for longer time for no direct reason.

3 Likes
33

→ I am going to telegraph him dying
→ He wont even be a blue unit all the time
→ He isnt even going to interact with the characters

Why is he a blue unit then

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34

Sounds kinda like Byleths dad

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35

So judging by some of the comments here, there was some argument against killing of the Jagen, so how about making the Jagen also an Eyvel archetype instead and have them come back later?
So I have this idea of a hack where the Jagen is only here to temporarily assist the greenhorn lord before having to go on another job elsewhere, and the game making it clear that he’s going leave the party for a while.
The Jagen’s returns can also be spiced up a bit. You can go the safe route and have him rejoin mid-late chapter with few level ups but otherwise having a relevant stats. Or have him join very late in the story, but with a lot of level ups and stats that he essentially become the Gotoh of the game.

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36

In some maps he tutorializes the idea that some units are significantly stronger than others and gain significantly less EXP than others. A tutorial for prepromotes, by being the Jagenest Jagen who ever Jagened complete with Pankraz death moment where the Lord gets captured for being a reckless idealistic moron and you have to watch him getting plinked to death by 1-2 range low damage enemies over 2-3ish turns, fewer if it crits. RNG-rigging LTCers can have fun with that.

I like that idea. That is a good idea. There could be a scene where Dad says he’s proud of who his kid became, it’d be great.

37

this thread bites off from TLP twice and it will never get funnier than that

3 Likes
38

Wait a second, a character who exists to give the player a taste of power and then die from plot could have an important function nobody’s mentioned yet.

Combat Arts, Class Skills, Personal Spell Lists… The overpowered Jagen doomed to die can introduce the player to all these endgame options and give the player a taste of high power combat early on to hook them. It turns the Lord learning a new Combat Art from “Oh cool, wonder what that does” to “OH SHIT THAT’S ONE OF JAGEN’S COMBAT ARTS AND I KNOW WHAT THAT DOES!”

39

no

stop

better ways with better payoffs

7 Likes
40

For real? What’s better than doing the “Mentor Occupational Hazard” thing with the “Jagen” archetype for creating emotional investment in the player, foreshadowing (is that the right word?) gameplay with higher level units, creating contrast between your army’s best and worst guys, and setting up a zero to hero growth arc where the weak Lord and his pals eventually surpass the dead Jagen and avenge him?