Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade 'Remake' [FE6 in FE8] [COMPLETE]

@jackofblades1991

Yes, skillsys by default enables setting crit to absolute zero by putting it at 255 any higher causes it to overflow.

Ok that’s good to know.

That’s why I added the -ish suffix, basically any chapter past 10 with a myrm will have them with 25 speed at base, meaning a minimum of 22 speed is required to not be doubled.

As I said, myrms/SMs are a small minority of enemies. I don’t know why you’re fixated on them and that particular benchmark.

They also have only 5/6 Mov, don’t have 1-2 range, and are especially frail in this hack (when you can hit them) due to Life and Death. So there’s ways to deal with them other than outspeeding them. Like I remember you posted about the SM in C8x before, and I showed that you can reliably live against him using unpromoted Barthe, Lilina, and Elen.

I never actually said it was better, but considering out of all the healers him and Lilina are the only ones who can/do gain access to physical weapons and he actually has a semi-decent growth it seems likely that was ZeN’s intent for him, but hadn’t accounted for the S/M split to kinda gimp him.

Yeah I don’t know if ZeN just didn’t want War Monk Saul to be decent or if he just forgot to buff him.

The bowbreaker is a bit overkill but it actually is ment to counter the archer +40 hit skill, and when actual logic is used, archer were known to struggle to hit mounted archers even if they led their shots.

I didn’t mean fewer nomads with Bowbreaker necessarily. I just meant fewer enemies with Bowbreaker in generals/more enemies that she can reliably hit.

No, this would likely render the maps a softlock due to the fact that these maps are based entirely around the fact that sacae is basically mongolia which is why it’s Nomad county.

I don’t understand “render the maps a softlock” at all. Maybe I’m just tired.

Plus Lowen is ment to cover the south point since only the Silver Bow Nomad can do any real damage to him, and even Eliwood’s low luck is ment to be a risk since a Killer Bow/Sword nomad approaches his side. These were somewhat actually planned out decently.

I believe there was some thought put into these maps, but it’s not so tightly designed that there’s no room to nerf Eliwood/Lyn/Dayan without being able to reliably win.

I also don’t know if Lowen even has to do anything. You could probably remove Lowen, Rebecca, and Florina and still beat the maps as easily (maybe not Florina. I don’t remember how necessary Rally Spd is).

You actually never see nomad units outside of these maps with any level of consistency so that’s why their here. Also the 6 total myrms, right…(only refering to 18x havent done 19x yet)
but the fact remains there is a metric assload of 2-4 range (potential longbows) to account for, she needs that delphi shield just to give her the chance to not being killed due to a single misplacement.

I’m not saying to remove nomads. I’m suggesting possibly changing some of their equipment.

Well yes…6 Myrms in 18x currently. But: (a) the suggestion about the Javelin still helps her even if the myrm # is relatively low. Every bit counts. (b) I did suggest adding more enemies that she could be good against. So that could be increasing the # of myrms, shamans, druids, or whatever else that fits.

I still don’t think Delphi Shield is a “need”/I think the player should be encouraged to play with discretion so I’d rather see a buff to her in some other form.

So you want to actively force the player to stretch 6 units across some of the most densely packed maps likely to lead to a lot more frustration then the rewards would be worth.

Well no, not exactly. I never said to do this while keeping everything else the same.

Like I said, break large packs into smaller ones i.e. make it less dense. I had also asked in my review of the 2/27 patch for higher deployment (e.g. adding Harken, Isadora, etc. to the game, if at all possible).

I mean if you have a better suggestion to force (necessary) contribution from all the units than go for it. But suggestions like buffing Florina’s combat straight up by giving her a Delphi Shield doesn’t do that (neither does buffing Lyn with a Prf, but I’m ok with her getting a Prf since she had one in FE7). i.e. she still doesn’t do anything extra that Eliwood/Lyn/Dayan couldn’t accomplish on their own.

So a 6th rapier that has crit, got it.

If this is a problem, then this is a problem with other weapons rather than the Mani Katti. i.e. It’s not that the Mani Katti should not be added, but the number of fanmade rapiers should be reduced.

Like don’t ask me why Larum got Sunflower Blade. In fact, I remember you liked that change/you liked that a Dancer–who doesn’t even need a sword to be good–got a 1-2 Range rapier Prf which has no basis in canon. But now you’re opposed to Lyn getting her canon Prf. I don’t get the inconsistency.

Due to their speed and all of them having an additional 20 avoid they on average have around 70 avoid which is quite alot, couple that with the fact the until you have promoted units they double everyone outright is why I focus on it. From my understanding the benchmarks for speed are determined by the fastest enemy on the map, not the average, which will almost always be a myrm. Funny enough the map that was skipped was the one with a Swordmaster for its boss, likely due to him (taking current skills into account) having over 110 avoid from being on a gate and likely capped speed.

The nomads have bowbreaker as a class skill, the only way to thin it out is removing that enemy from their dedicated maps.

Depending how hard the nerfs would be they could be rendered uncompletable due to either the enemies now being unfeasable to fight or being completely unable to kill certain enemies without retaliation that could be one rounded prior that needed to be one rounded.

He has to wall off the southern enemies or you get both the silver nomad bearing down on everyone. There’s a reason a lot of them have shortbows, just swapping them to steel or silver causes too much damage to be sent out once 3 or more nomads focus on a single target. Rally speed also comes in handy to cover Lowen against some of the faster nomads and even the myrms to an extent.

I had to spend about 6 turns to thin out the enemies enough for florina to be able to do anything.

Eh, it’s less that and more ironically i don’t think she should have it up front due to how trivial having two slayer weapons would make those maps (no idea about dayan’s inventory). I wouldn’t be opposed to that being a speed reward for 19x.

Also, if we’re really going to split this hair, I actually rarely use dancers that can’t fight back solely due to the sheer difficulty of training them. 10exp per action is so pointlessly low that its 10 turns for a level. I’m not spending 200 total turns just to make them have decent survivability. Some of the original ambush spawns are present here so its just not something I’d like to risk, like even currently I’m still not using Larum just because I have other units I want to use.

@jackofblades1991

From my understanding the benchmarks for speed are determined by the fastest enemy on the map, not the average, which will almost always be a myrm.

Usually, the benchmark you worry about is hitting the one that pertains to most enemies. For example in FE7 HHM, the most important Spd benchmark you try to reach with most of your units is ~14 (I don’t remember the exact figure), as that allows them to double most enemies in the game. Another important Spd benchmark is 24 Spd to double enemy Valkyries on Cog of Destiny, but that only needs to be reached by units dedicated to killing them and only really matters on that chapter.

The nomads have bowbreaker as a class skill, the only way to thin it out is removing that enemy from their dedicated maps.

And that’s fine. A combination of replacing some of the nomads + adding other enemies that don’t have Bowbreaker would be good.

Depending how hard the nerfs would be they could be rendered uncompletable due to either the enemies now being unfeasable to fight or being completely unable to kill certain enemies without retaliation that could be one rounded prior that needed to be one rounded.

Like I said, while there was some thought put into this, it’s really not as tightly designed as you think and there’s definitely room for nerfs. It’s your first playthrough and you haven’t even played 19x yet. Maybe once you’ve experienced those maps more, you’ll see how much leeway you have.

He has to wall off the southern enemies or you get both the silver nomad bearing down on everyone. There’s a reason a lot of them have shortbows, just swapping them to steel or silver causes too much damage to be sent out once 3 or more nomads focus on a single target. Rally speed also comes in handy to cover Lowen against some of the faster nomads and even the myrms to an extent.

Lowen doesn’t have to do anything tbh. I don’t know why you’re defensively using Rally Spd on Lowen when you can Rally Speed Eliwood instead so that he reaches 27 Spd to double enemy Nomad Troopers and ORKO with Noble Rapier on player phase. He has Galeforce so he can reposition afterward. Eliwood would need to get hit by something like 3 crits in a row to die and at least one of the crits needs to be from a Nomad Trooper so take out the promoted enemies on player phase so you don’t need to worry about them much on enemy phase.

I had to spend about 6 turns to thin out the enemies enough for florina to be able to do anything.

Which is why I suggested changing enemy positioning to lower the density, spreading out the packs more, as well as adding more enemies that she can be effective against. That’s a much more interesting way to get Florina to be able to get her kills rather than giving her the ability to tank hits.

Not to mention in general, this hack already has too many Delphi Shields. In my 2/27 hack review, I noted that the hack has 3 Delphi Shields as opposed to vanilla’s 1 Delphi Shield.

how trivial having two slayer weapons would make those maps (no idea about dayan’s inventory).

Eliwood/Dayan/Lyn already trivialize the maps the way they are. Lyn ORKOs both nomad and nomad troopers with the Silver Bow and ORKOs unpromoted nomads with the Silver Sword regardless of slayer effectiveness. And if she’s Rallied by either Eliwood or Florina (or if she got enough Spd through level ups or acquired Life and Death) she can ORKO Nomad Troopers with the Silver Sword as well. The only thing Mani Katti would allow her to do really is ORKO Nomad Troopers at base without a Rally. Dayan also ORKOs things regardless of effectiveness. Eliwood also ORKOs without his Noble Rapier if he’s provided Spd.

If you give her the Prf at the end of 19x, there won’t be much usage for the effective damage in the endgame maps. It would be better to just give it to her in 18x or 19x and make adjustments as necessary.

I actually rarely use dancers that can’t fight back solely due to the sheer difficulty of training them. 10exp per action is so pointlessly low that its 10 turns for a level. I’m not spending 200 total turns just to make them have decent survivability.

Dancers provide the same utility regardless if they’re max level or Level 1.

Regarding survivability:

  1. This one’s obvious and I’m including this for completeness sake rather than saying you aren’t trying to do this already…but try to not to get your dancer hit. They’re not supposed to be in situations where they need to fight back.
  2. Rescue exists as a mechanic. Rescue staves also exist (albeit later in the game besides the one Saul starts with).
  3. Give her an Angelic Robe to boost her survivability rather than trying to get her enough HP and defenses through level-ups. In most vanilla games, it’s that one Angelic Robe/Seraph Robe investment that helps dancers live 1 more hit.

Actually for eliwood it’s the myrms you have to watch out for, one of them crit him and I would have had to restart if I didn’t get lucky and he proc’d Aether.

I found playing defensive worked out a lot more consistently then trying to rush forward. Also you may not not be fully grasping that I said rally speed helps lowen with faster enemies, but I didn’t actually say I didn’t also use it on rebecca, eliwood and lyn, cause I did do that.

Honestly, snipers are fairly threntening and since they have critboost it still ends up being either they kill from raw power or a crit on fliers so I guess I see your point there, but I still think she needs one just due to not having a proper healer, which honestly It could be smarter to turn her into a seraph knight just because it would give you a healer as backup.

Actually remember, Mani Katti is effective against Infantry, Sol Katti is effective against Dragons. It would work or her to get the Sol Katti since she reappears on the map with the single highest concentration of wyverns in the game.

This is just one of those things where our different ways of playing kinda just works against us.

My logic is “why would I deploy a refresher when I could just deploy another combat-unit/healer?” Since I don’t usually put myself in situations where I need the refresh to do what I’m doing, I inherently give it less value. That’s why I prefer using dancers in every game but the GBA games since why would I refresh a unit to do what just deploying a combat capable unit could have done for me instead.

Only in the GBA trio is this a thing, since I know you haven’t really played a bunch of hacks you haven’t seen this yet but the majority of them give dancers either combat abilities (swords or magic, and in one case making them manaketes) or staves in addition to dacing since a refresh isn’t always the best choice.

Refreshing is a powerful tool, I do agree, but a unit that can only refresh has little value to me.

The best hack I could suggest you try out for this would be “Sun God’s Wrath” I mean it, I would also heavily suggest against playing hard mode for a first playthrough since it’s one of the more aggressive hacks on hard mode.

Reminds me of “Code of the Black Knights” Angel, a dance that could promote to a flier with staff and anima magic. The latter wasn’t all that great since her MAG growth was kinda shakey, but the flying utility + staves was nice. Shame that hack was buggy mess, it had some really neat concepts.

Hmm, I’ve considered playing that one but due to how many condition based things can go wrong when going for a certain ending I decided against it.

Funny enough SGW is actually one where you get two dancers, one being a thief and one being a manakete with staff utility. They are both good on their own but the extra utility elevates them.

I suppose my distaste for only-dancers, and to a certain extent high move units, is they are really only good if you know everything a map is going to throw at you. Where as in a first play through they are prone to being deployment hazards.

Sorry for double posting.

Ok, bested 19X, still not seeing it. I used Lowen to stem the onslaught on the left took about 3 turns to clean everything out and then worked from there. Honestly beyond giving florina a delphi shield and Lyn a slightly more durable sword there isn’t much that I’d change. As far as it goes honestly without Lowen tanking a bunch of short bows I probably would have struggled a lot more.

I think the biggest difference between how we’re seeing things is I likely play a bit more defensive and slower then you do.
Which is why I valued Lowen’s bulky nature and florina’s rally over just bull-rushing the enemy.

the myrms you have to watch out for, one of them crit him and I would have had to restart if I didn’t get lucky and he proc’d Aether.

The myrms start on the right side. You can mostly split their approach with the nomads’s approach.

you may not not be fully grasping that I said rally speed helps lowen with faster enemies

I get that. But what I was trying to point out is you don’t need him at all.

Actually remember, Mani Katti is effective against Infantry, Sol Katti is effective against Dragons. It would work or her to get the Sol Katti since she reappears on the map with the single highest concentration of wyverns in the game.

Mani Katti is effective against both like mounted units and armor, like the Rapier.

I actually agree on this and this is something I thought of after my previous response to you as well. i.e. Giving Lyn the Sol Katti at the end of 19x would be fine.

My logic is “why would I deploy a refresher when I could just deploy another combat-unit/healer?”

Because they can refresh any unit, and that provides you with more flexibility. If you deploy units A, B, C, D, E, every phase you get one action from each max. If you deploy units A, B, C, D + Dancer now you can get 2 actions from A + 1 from the rest, 2 actions from B + 1 from the rest, 2 actions from C + 1 from the rest, or 2 actions from D + 1 from the rest on any player phase. You also don’t need to invest in another unit in terms of experience and stat boosters/focus your resources on a smaller set of units, and that extra unit you would have brought may not be as good as other units you could refresh.

Only in the GBA trio is this a thing, since I know you haven’t really played a bunch of hacks you haven’t seen this yet but the majority of them give dancers either combat abilities (swords or magic, and in one case making them manaketes) or staves in addition to dacing since a refresh isn’t always the best choice.
Refreshing is a powerful tool, I do agree, but a unit that can only refresh has little value to me.

Actually that’s not true. Dancers with weapons did not originate in hacks. In FE12/13/14 dancers do have weapon access/Feena, Olivia, and Azura namely have sword or lance access (and Olivia and Azura can possibly reclass). But their weapon access is for the most part useless. Weapon access or not, Refresh is still the move you’re going to make almost 100% of the time on player phase. And dancers don’t have the bulk to reliably enemy phase.

Regardless of whether it’s a vanilla game or a hack, you’re not just arguing against me on the usefulness of dancers, but against years’ worth of collective FE community experience and conventional wisdom including that of players much better/more efficient than either of us. Check any tier list for any vanilla game–where again, dancers either have no weapon access or token weapon access–and see where dancers are placed.

Edit below:

Which is why I valued Lowen’s bulky nature and florina’s rally over just bull-rushing the enemy.

Just in case it wasn’t clear before, I also value Florina’s Rallying and it seems where we differ is how much we value Lowen.

I thinks some wires are getting crossed here, My issue is solely with units that can only dance, not dancers as a whole since most of them can fight back if push comes to shove enabling them to gain exp faster to aid them in surviving potential misplays or getting coldcocked by an ambush spawn I didn’t know about in a first playthrough.

I mean the fact I even recommended a hack that gives you two dancers that, while I didn’t say it, I used frequently for dancing while being able to use them for other stuff when dancing wasn’t a good use for the turn should say I do like them.

GBA dancers to me are like Merlinus they do one thing and require a bunch of babying and protection and preknowledge of the game to use properly while a liability without it. So I dislike when they can’t actually do anything other then dance just due to the fact that Elfinn, Larum, Tethes, Ninnian and Nils are he worst dancers in the entirety of FE. Even the two herons in the tellius games are better since they atleast could dance multiple people.

They are still dancers don’t get me wrong, but it’s just my preference.
same with me not being fond of how much people fellatiate mounted units. They’re good but jesus do people honestly favor them too much.

Yeah my strat was using lowens bulk to bait and hold all the nomads at the top left bridge due to how their ai makes them move to the nearest spot and clear off a few of them who decided to stand on the bridge in lance range, then the last 6 in one fell swoop. The rest was pretty simple from there.

Actually that’s not true. Dancers with weapons did not originate in hacks. In FE12/13/14 dancers do have weapon access/Feena, Olivia, and Azura namely have sword or lance access.

I just wanna note the wording of this part’s just a bit misleading and implies we hadn’t seen dancers with weapons up until that point and fe12 was the first time we’d seen it appear. They could use swords back in FE3/4/5. And at least what the other person’s wording seemed to imply was more saying it’s only the GBA games that’ve had dancers unable to use weapons, which is true, not that dancers with weapons hadn’t existed until hackroms came about.

@Fringus

I can see why my statement would seem misleading and I apologize as I didn’t mean to spread misinformation. I did not intend to imply FE12 is where dancers first receive weapon access in the mainline games nor that FE12/13/14 are the only mainline games where dancers have weapon access. That’s just where–among the games I’ve played–I saw them first receive weapon access. (I have played some Jugdral, Tellius, FE8, FE11 but barely and don’t recall much especially from Jugdral/Tellius). The vast majority of my playing experience is in FE6/7/12/13/14).

All I was pointing out is that weapon access on dancers did not originate in hacks, which is what I thought @jackofblades1991 meant but maybe I misunderstood.

Regardless, my point stands that they are already top tier without weapon access/weapon access is not what makes them top tier.

@jackofblades1991

I thinks some wires are getting crossed here, My issue is solely with units that can only dance, not dancers as a whole since most of them can fight back

I already addressed this. But let me try again but make it clearer:

  1. In the vanilla games where they can “fight back”, they still don’t do meaningful damage nor do they have good bulk. It’s just token combat ability and you could remove it and they’d be just as good.
  2. In games where they “can only dance” and not just only dance, but only refresh one unit, they’re still considered top tier. Yes, dancers like Ninian and Nils are still considered top tier.
  3. In hacks where dancers are given good combat abiility, it’s still largely superfluous and more of “I CAN use my Dancer to perform combat” rather than “I NEED my Dancer for combat”. There’s an opportunity cost of giving up Refresh for combat if we’re talking about player phase.

Take away the combat/staff utility of a dancer in any vanilla game or hack and they’ll still always be worth a deployment slot (except for extremely rare cases like FE7 HHM Chapter 30: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58M3G4mS630).

Edit: Originally worded/phrased this comment pretty badly. Fixed to make sense.

tier lists are a largely subjective setting in which there is no 100% absolute true answer. I dislike the GBA dancers due to my aforementioned distaste for bringing a unit that requires so much accounting for.

Like I also said, dancing isn’t always the optimal use for a dancers turn, plus in quite a few hacks, removing their additional traits actually bricks the rom due to several maps being built around them having their additional traits, two I immediately think of being SGW since you actually get softlocked if your dancer wasn’t also a thief, and Deity Device since your dancer is your only healer for about 4-7 maps after a party swap who without that healing ability several on those maps now require so much RNG to not take damage that it’s unfeesable.

yeah, I don’t exactly announce which FE’s I’ve played but, FE 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17. so I am well aware of that.

I’m mostly just trying to get across that I do think dancers are good, but if they can’t fight or at least heal I prefer not to use them due to how I prefer to play since, again, refreshing a unit is not always the optimal move.

To reiterate, I know dancers are good, I think dancers are good but I prefer to use dancers that can do other stuff too just because of how I play.

tier lists are a largely subjective setting in which there is no 100% absolute true answer.

Not exactly. They are often based on efficiency/how many turns they save.

removing their additional traits actually bricks the rom due to several maps being built around them having their additional traits, two I immediately think of being SGW since you actually get softlocked if your dancer wasn’t also a thief, and Deity Device since your dancer is your only healer for about 4-7 maps after a party swap who without that healing ability several on those maps now require so much RNG to not take damage that it’s unfeesable.

I mean if a hack does something weird like force your only healer or only thief to also be your dancer such that you have to pick between healing/stealing/opening chests/opening doors or refreshing, then sure you could say dancing isn’t always the best option. But that’s not a thing in any vanilla game and my best guess is it is extremely rare among hacks as well.

dancing isn’t always the optimal use for a dancers turn

Aside from hacks like the ones you mentioned, which is a weird case, it’s the optimal move virtually 100% of the time. If you’re playing correctly, you should always have some other unit in range of your dancer that can perform the combat/staff/thief duty, and in the case of combat/staffing, do it better than the dancer (if your dancer is on par with your actual combat units or actual staff units, then you have a balance issue).

but I prefer to use dancers that can do other stuff too just because of how I play.

I hope dancers like Feena, Olivia, Azura do enough “other stuff” for you (they only have token combat aside from refreshing) that you didn’t skip out on using them because if you skip using them on harder difficulties you’re gonna have a rough time.

They do, but funny enough Azura usually turns into one of my better fighters anyway. Feena I just straight don’t use because I’ve usually gotten enough strong units by that point that the refresh isn’t needed, or just dies outright due to enemy positions on higher difficulties. Olivia is actually surprisingly good as a swordmaster and galeforce kinda nullifies the need for a dancer once you gather enough of the G2 units. Either way If I need them I use them if I don’t I don’t for me its just that simple.

That is exactly why they are subjective, since not everyone does LTC strats. Some people just prefer not to use dancers, some people prefer to play slow, some prefer to OT maps, its all different to each person, ergo tier lists are subjective.

Not really, I decided to sift through my rom folder and look at every single rom hack I have/played to count how many give dancers additional abilities. take a wild stab how many out of the 69 rom hacks I’ve played have done this, I’ll put the answer in a spoiler tab. The whole thing I’ve been trying to get across is you seem to think I should play FE the way you do, which I won’t because I’m not you, and that won’t change. We can’t really continue beating this dead horse because we’re repeating ourselves at this point, and due to a fundamental difference in how we play, we will likely never agree on this topic. (Due to the variable nature of player unit stats the optimal move depends entirely on who’s even deployed.)

Here's how many

Out of 69 hacks roughly 55 of them gave dancers either swords, or staff utility. the remaining hacks either are slight balance hacks so they are ment to leave the game largely the same so units weapon selections don’t change, or straight out don’t give you a dancer because it isn’t needed for what is intended.

@jackofblades1991

Azura usually turns into one of my better fighters anyway. Feena I just straight don’t use because I’ve usually gotten enough strong units by that point that the refresh isn’t needed, or just dies outright due to enemy positions on higher difficulties. Olivia is actually surprisingly good as a swordmaster and galeforce kinda nullifies the need for a dancer once you gather enough of the G2 units. Either way If I need them I use them if I don’t I don’t for me its just that simple.

I don’t think using Azura to fight works on Lunatic Conquest.

I probably shouldn’t have mentioned Olivia because Awakening’s a game where you don’t even need most of your units anyway. In any case, you’re giving up refresh right away to reclass her to PK and have to invest a lot of exp into her to grab Galeforce (requires Dark Flier Lvl 15). Then you’re reclassing to SM. All to end up a mediocre combat unit when you could just dance Robin or some actual combat unit instead.

That is exactly why they are subjective, since not everyone does LTC strats. Some people just prefer not to use dancers, some people prefer to play slow, some prefer to OT maps, its all different to each person, ergo tier lists are subjective.

This is some sort of cop-out answer tbh. It would be like somebody asking you, “Which team is better, the Bucks or the Pistons?” And you say, “Well you see it’s all subjective. Some people care about wins and losses. Some people care about which team has the hotter cheerleaders. As for me, I think the Pistons are better because I live in Michigan.” Meanwhile, Bucks are 54-21 Wins to Losses and Pistons are 16-59 WL.

Sure you could tier characters based on who has the lowest Mov stat. Or who has the closest to a Golden Ratio face. Or who has a name as lexicographically close to “Gonzalez” as possible.

But what does any of that have to do with winning?

Turncount is a reasonable metric to use that tells you how easily you beat the game. It’s not the only metric you could use, but it’s certainly a reasonable one (if not the most).

Sure, you can play how you want. You can play without using dancers. You can play slow. Whatever. But I feel like you’re being overly dismissive of tier lists and purposely shutting your eyes and ears to the fact that some characters are stronger/win harder than others.

Edit: We went on a tangent, so I want to loop back to Larum/ZeN’s hack and summarize: ZeN’s hack isn’t SGW or Deity Device. You have plenty of combat units/staffers/thieves by the time Larum joins, so she can refresh them instead of doing things herself. Like in vanilla games, Refresh is the optimal move ~100% of the time. Having the Sunflower Blade doesn’t really make her much better than she already is and it’s an odd choice to buff a top tier unit when there are actual balance problems to fix (i.e. other stuff that should probably be higher priority like removing proc skills or getting Marcus to stop ORKOing things in early game). I found it weird that you supported adding the Sunflower Blade (a 1-2 Rng Rapier with an insane 40 uses which is more than the uses of Prfs for actual combat units) but balked at adding Lyn’s Mani Katti on the grounds that it would be another rapier when (a) Lyn’s an actual combat unit; (b) Lyn’s Prf is actually canon. It looks like a major difference between us is that you think more about what you want while I think more about what’s actually necessary. Lyn having her Prf? Necessary. Larum having a Prf? That’s a want, not a need, imo.

Not really, I decided to sift through my rom folder and look at every single rom hack I have/played to count how many give dancers additional abilities.
Out of 69 hacks roughly 55 of them gave dancers either swords, or staff utility

You completely misunderstood.

You looked for how many hacks gave dancers swords or staves rather than how many hacks force you to choose between healing and dancing/thieving and dancing/combat and dancing.

In the two hacks you brought up before, your dancer happens to be your only healer or your only thief. How many other hacks are like that where they compress the roles such that your dancer has nobody to dance that can perform the essential healing, the combat, the thief duties, etc.?

You also completely misread my one statement, I didn’t actually say they were the only ones.

In SGW your dancers just happen to be a thief and manakete/healer you also get a few other characters with the ability to use lockpicks and steal (a fighter, merc and ninja respectively) but due to that hack using the fatigue system you can’t deploy them on every map. Whereas in Deity Device the story has you swap to a new party for act 2 and your first healer from then on is is also a dancer, you eventually get the act 1 units back and with them your other healers. Its just for a few maps your only healer is your dancer.

You can think that if you want, I personally don’t try to LTC since I’ve actually had a few hacks and even my initial playthrough of Sacred Stones punish me for going fast just because I was working blind.

While it is reasonable there is the fact that no two playthroughs of any FE game or Hack will have your units turn out the exact same (unless playing on fixed growths). Because of this entirely RNG dependant variable you can quite realisticly have a run where the normally S-Tier character gets so stat screwed that they become unusable where as some of the B-tiers perform above and beyond. It’s just the nature of the game. Which is why I ultimately dislike tier lists since it evetually breeds a level of toxicity into a fandom.

Which is how this entire thread derailment kinda started.

I also feel like you keep willingly ignore some of what I’ve put here just to keep this entire thing going. Case in point.

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This enitre thing was a response to this

and its purpose was to solely point out that it wasn’t that uncommon using a sample size I had on hand, my personal hack collection.

While this was completely irrelevant to my point, which was again just to show most hacks give dancers something else to do if dancing isn’t an option.

I strongly advise you to play a varity of hacks to get a better understanding of where I’m coming from here, please.

Now then, to get things back on topic: I actually thought we had agreed that giving her the Sol Katti in addition to Mulagir after 19x would be a good Idea so it wasn’t so much a tangent and rather this part was already done being discussed, or so I thought at least.

@jackofblades1991

In SGW your dancers just happen to be a thief and manakete/healer you also get a few other characters with the ability to use lockpicks and steal (a fighter, merc and ninja respectively) but due to that hack using the fatigue system you can’t deploy them on every map. Whereas in Deity Device the story has you swap to a new party for act 2 and your first healer from then on is is also a dancer, you eventually get the act 1 units back and with them your other healers. Its just for a few maps your only healer is your dancer.

Regarding SGW, it doesn’t matter whether they’re the only thief or not in the entire game. It’s really your fault for leaving out the details about fatigue. Either way, as you said, you can get softlocked, so it means you have to use that dancer for thief duties. i.e. they are the only thief on certain chapters.

Regarding Deity Device. I mean you’re being purposely daft again. 4-7 chapters is significant where if you don’t use your only healer for those chapters you’re probably screwed.

I don’t know what you’re quibbling for on the details. Again, how many hacks force you to actually use your dancer for other roles among the 69 hacks you’ve played? There’s a difference between can and have to and you’re purposely ignoring that difference.

While it is reasonable there is the fact that no two playthroughs of any FE game or Hack will have your units turn out the exact same (unless playing on fixed growths). Because of this entirely RNG dependant variable you can quite realisticly have a run where the normally S-Tier character gets so stat screwed that they become unusable where as some of the B-tiers perform above and beyond.

You fix things based on what’s likely. I don’t know why averages are such a foreign concept to you.
Higher tier characters are more likely to perform better than lower tier characters.

In the case of dancers in particular, their stats don’t really matter. Refresh on its own is OP. They can’t get RNG screwed/they’re consistently good. If you’re getting your dancer hit often/into situations where they need to “fight back” or into situations where you can’t dance anybody else to perform the necessary actions that’s a skill issue, not a “dancers that can only Refresh is bad” issue.

You’ve asked about why you should deploy a dancer over another unit. You’ve complained about dancers being frail. You also keep bringing up “what if dancing isn’t the best move on this turn?” as if that happens often. This points to you not knowing how to use dancers. This doesn’t point to “dancers NEED additional capabilities to be worth deploying”.

which was again just to show most hacks give dancers something else to do if dancing isn’t an option.

Again, that’s not special to hacks. As I pointed out, there are dancers in mainline games with weapons. But it barely matters that they do. Again, Refresh is ~100% the option if you’re playing correctly besides special cases SGW and DD where they force the dancer into multiple roles. Find the % of hacks for which the extra capability of dancers is actually meaningful. That % is going to be very small. You’ve only been able to point out 2 so far, among the 69 you’ve played.

Now then, to get things back on topic: I actually thought we had agreed that giving her the Sol Katti in addition to Mulagir after 19x would be a good Idea so it wasn’t so much a tangent and rather this part was already done being discussed, or so I thought at least.

What we ended up agreeing on the Sol Katti doesn’t take away from the fact you were strangely inconsistent regarding the Mani Katti. Adding the Mani Katti should not be a problem, and should take priority over fanmade Prfs. If too many Rapiers would have been an issue, then changing fanmade Rapiers (e.g. the one Larum was given) is how to resolve the issue rather than not adding the Mani Katti.

Σᕕ(´• U •`)ᕗ

Just a Kamen Rider passing through

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Feeling is true

Wish some1 would do a fan remake rewrite rebalance for Fe7 with Hector+Eliwood route being combined!!!

We have have Fe6 and Fe8 amazing fan remakes but no fe7.

:pleading_face:

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