Even if most spells, or even all spells, had 1 range and only the rarest strongest spells had more than 1 range, most units have more DEF than RES. Your magicians will see more combat, not to mention how their ability to counterattack during the enemy phase in a way bowmen can’t without one particular rare gimmick bow helps them gain more EXP and Weapon EXP. If Bows were not a fundamentally broken weapon category in dire need of some sort of buff to all bows that helps them compete with other weapons, conversations about how to make bows as a category of weapons good wouldn’t keep saying “Make bow users good by raising their stats or growths” or “Improve bow-using classes”.
Though I like the idea of giving archers EXP boosts. That’s a good one. If I hadn’t buffed Bows in my game to be 1-3 range plus 1 tile per 5 skill, and gain vantage on incoming melee attacks, I would consider that.
into the Condition. And then, as if you were using Dynamic Resist or Dynamic Accuracy, you select Dynamic Range and-
Oh, wait, there isn’t a Component for that. You’ll have to manually add something else to all the bows in your game instead, it’ll take less than a minute. Although while you’re making global hidden skills, if you want something special to happen to units with bows equipped like gaining Vantage or gaining/losing some bonus stat points, that’s how you make a skill that affects everyone with a bow equipped.
Select Items, type Bow into the filter, and delete each bow’s Maximum Range. Give each bow the “Maximum Equation Range” component, try searching for “Range” in the Components menu. Create the Equation “3 + (SKL//5)” (this means “divide unit’s skill by 5, then add 3”) and use that Equation for the Maximum Equation Range.
Congrats, you’ve done it. Now your bows have a maximum range of 3, plus another tile per 5 points of skill your Archer has, just like in my game. Might want to change the Minimum Range to be 1, 2, whatever you want (Not zero) while you’re at it. If you’d rather start with 2 range free to change the equation to “2 + (SKL//5)”, and if you want you can change the number of Skill points you need to get another point of range by changing the (SKL//5) part to (SKL//6) if you want to need 6 points of skill for another tile, or (SKL//10) if you want extra tiles to require 10 skill points.
Here’s my thoughts, hidden cause I wrote way more then I thought I would.
Summary
Archers haven’t been god awful in every FE game. The games I’ve played where bows are good include gaiden, where archers getting horses and 1-5 range gives them a completely different purpose then mages, FE6, where Wolt and Dorothy don’t suffer because of their class, but because their stats are hilariously bad, as seen from where Klein and Igrene are both very solid units despite being snipers, along with the fact that wyverns are everywhere in FE6 and bows are very good at killing them, and FE12, where there are numerous, powerful flying threats and especially early on bow users are the best option you have to kill them. I’ve heard that bows are good in 15 and 16, but I haven’t played those so I won’t comment here.
However, my example of FE6 shows an issue with archers that many have already pointed out: They’re completely overshadowed by mages in chip in many cases. In FE6, a fire tome has 1 less might then an iron bow, but has 15 more hit and hits on res, along with being 1-2 range. This weapon is on a unit that exists to serve as the exact same thing an archer does: chipping or killing enemies without eating a counter, and 1-2 range makes mages even better at it. To add insult to injury, fe6 lets you purchase aircalibur, a tome that deals effective damage to fliers. This tome not only overlaps on the archer’s remaining niche, but is even better at killing wyvern riders thanks to hitting on their lower defensive stat, Res. Gaiden actually avoids this issue by giving magic a different purpose, by making it drain the user’s hp, making even the basic fire spell heavy, and by limiting magic’s range to lower then a bows unless you have the magic ring, which you’re not guaranteed to get. Magic has advantages over bows, like higher accuracy, but thanks to bows being able to outrange mages and other enemies it balances out.
Does this mean I’m a fan of universal 2-3 range for bows? No, as it is an extreme benefit to bows that makes your archers incredibly strong, especially with the fact that most hacks recognize that archers need stats and so give them on access, making your archers capable of nuking everything from 3 spaces away. Project Ember is a big example of this. The other issue with 2-3 range bows is that it makes enemy archers incredibly irritating to play around. In Gaiden, enemy bow knights are incredibly irritating as they can attack a huge area of land and means you are severely limited in your options. In SOTF-style hacks, this can mean that enemy archers encourage turtling other enemies out before facing the archers down, instead of being able to go on the offensive, because it’s nearly impossible to place your units in a way where they archer won’t be able to attack with the other enemies. Take note that I’m not against some bows having 2-3 range, but global 2-3 range is a bother and reduces the skill needed to utilize archers effectively. I’m a fan of giving archers 2-3 range options, but at a cost. Eligor Spear’s heavy bow provides high damage at 2-3 range, but is twice as heavy as Avanni (archer lord’s) Con, providing a drawback.
On the topic of hacks that do archers good, two hacks I’ve played/ in the process of playing that do a very good job of making archers good without making enemy archers the most terrifying enemy around are Vision Quest and Eligor’s spear. In both of these hacks, archers and snipers have a few very noticeable traits that make them good: Crit boost, decent stats, and access to good, unique weapons. These, added on with the fact that enemies are a threat in these two hacks make archers worthwhile. Infantry with only one weapon type getting crit boost is something that I support wholeheartedly, but is another topic. The crit boost in this case helps set apart archers as units designed to have a strong offense. In both Eligor’s Spear and Vision Quest, this sets apart your snipers as units capable of removing enemies that are bulky and threatening. This is shown to an extreme in Eligor’s Spear, where the enemies in the final 3 maps are incredibly powerful and snipers are some of the best suited to taking them out without suffering a counterattack. Decent stats is something given out to most archers nowadays in hacks, but that doesn’t mean it should be underrated in making an archer good. Bringing back FE6, Wolt and Dorothy are bad not because they’re archers, but because their base stats are terrible and their growths aren’t good enough to fix it. A final similarity is how these hacks give bow units actually good weapons. Most bows aren’t good enough archers being mediocre, but the brave bow in vanilla FE is a stellar example of making archers good at combat. In Thracia, the brave bow’s stats are strong enough that any archer with the bow rank to use it has good combat with it. However, most other bows just aren’t that good in practice. The hacks I’ve cited give archers several good weapons, with Vision quest giving archers access to bows that are effective against cavalry or armors, or even just a longbow with extra might. Eligor’s spear gives its archers a variety of bows, from one that hits on Res, to a longbow with extra might, crit, and good hit. These weapons make archers far nicer to use as the ability to deal effective damage to more then fliers, deal great chip from afar, or hit on res. A great example of this is Vision Quest’s Cashew, who should by all means be a terrible unit, with poor availability and stats, but he counteracts this by having a personal brave bow that can let him get kills and contribute.
Something Eligor’s Spear does that really helps archers out is buff the weapon triangle, and it gives archers wta against mages. This niche is furthered by a bow that deals effective damage to mages you get later in the game, and it allows archers to do something else other units can’t: deal with mages effectively.
On the topic of 1-2 range shortbows, I’m not a fan of them. Instead of trying to have archers hit a niche that other units don’t, this tries to fix an inherent weakness with bows that makes it so that bows seem more like other weapon types, and this doesn’t let them be unique. Instead of focusing on what bows are good at and having a weapon type that requires skillful play and positioning, you turn bows into just another weapon type.
uh, in short, archers are at their best when they have a niche or niches they fill, those niches are needed, and they require skillful play to use at their best.
Very late response - there’s an Eval Maximum Range component for skills in the base engine, that boosts Range by an expression, which is what you would want instead of setting it for every item specifically
Just want to point out that this isn’t quite correct. Lilina isn’t able to one shot some endgame Wyvern Lords even on normal mode while Wolt and especially Dorothy can easily one shot them with a Silver Bow. The 15 Mt difference more than makes up for attacking DEF over RES.
The only Aircalibur user you get who has decent base stats is Cecilia who can only do big chip damage against Wyverns but not really OHKO them. This stands in contrast to the Bow users you get who do have great base stats like Shin, Klein, Igrene and Bartre. Lugh and Lilina aren’t that much better than Cecilia by the time they’re promoted so they’re not really worthwhile training. Your logic only checks out on paper but in practise it’s not a problem. Furthermore, Bow users still have the niche of the Longbow’s 2-3 range which is highly valuable in avoiding counter attacks in FE6, bypassing walls or for engaging with Longbow enemies. Then there’s the other facts of Bows having Killer and Brave variants whereas Aircalibur doesn’t have any flair beyond effective damage. Given the sheer bulk of Ch21 Wyverns having the added Crit or follow-ups of Killers and Brave is necessary often to ORKO.
Wolt and Dorothy definitely cannot oneshot hard mode wyvern lords with a silver bow. Capped strength (24) Wolt has 63 attack with a silver bow, which misses the oneshot threshold by a lot. Dorothy only has a strength cap of 23, and Wolt is actually 2 points off the str cap at 20/20. (Wyvern lords average about 58 hp and 19 def) It oneshots wyvern riders in that chapter, but Wolt would also double and kill with other weapons. A 20/5 Lilina will also fail to oneshot with aircalibur, but she deals a similar amount of chip with aircalibur as capped str Wolt. (49 attack with Aircalibur on a wyvern lord’s practically nonexistent res). The difference between using aircalibur and silver bows is that aircalibur is cheaper to buy, more accurate, and on units with more flexibility then just fighting wyverns, making sages capable of covering sniper’s niches while also getting more accurate weapons, 1-2 range, portable siege range, staves, and more. On normal mode, oneshotting wyverns doesn’t matter as they are slow enough that they get doubled by most everything and have way less bulk, so it’s easier for any unit to just sit in range with a killer weapon.
This topic is discussing Archer and Snipers, Nomad Trooper is a great class already, and Bartre has a whopping D base bows. In terms of snipers, Klein and Igrene both have good base stats but at base have 55 attack with a silver, dealing around 34 damage to a wyvern lord with a silver bow and not doubling without more speed. Cecilia has 35 attack at base against a wyvern lord with aircalibur, which is probably only 3 or 4 damage less then Igrene’s output with the silver bow when you consider that wyvern lords have practically no res. Speaking of Damage against Wyvern lords, let’s bring out the banana lad, Lugh. A 20/10 Lugh has 21 speed, comfortably doubling wyvern lords with aircalibur and ORKO-ing them. The only other sniper who can replicate this without legendary weapons at 20/10 is Dorothy, and Woly and Dorothy both are far harder to train then Lugh because Lugh hits on Res and has the best weapon in the game, the 95 accuracy fire tome. The longbow isn’t that good a weapon because it has 55 hit, and sages can use bolting to outrange them. The killer bow is a great weapon, yes, but is a worse investment then killer lances and edges, on weaker units. The Brave Bow also fails to kill wyvern lords effectively, at base Igrene has 46*2 attack with it, dealing 54 damage to our wyvern lord, leaving them with some hp left, so they serve the same purpose as an aircalibur sage, taking most of a wyvern lords hp. Alongside this, aircalibur is more accurate then every bow in the game, making sages more reliable then snipers for chipping and killing wyverns.
Wolt and Dorothy definitely cannot oneshot hard mode wyvern lords with a silver bow.
Okay, I never mentioned anything about ORKOing with Silver Bows anyway so not sure what your point is there.
The difference between using aircalibur and silver bows is that aircalibur is cheaper to buy, more accurate, and on units with more flexibility then just fighting wyverns, making sages capable of covering sniper’s niches while also getting more accurate weapons, 1-2 range, portable siege range, staves, and more.
Sages aren’t being used unless you’re using the Mages out of attachment and favouritism because the Mages’ base stats don’t make them a better pick over higher base stat units. The Snipers are better than training the Mages because they still kill fliers very well, have excellent chip damage and cost you nothing at all really.
On normal mode, oneshotting wyverns doesn’t matter as they are slow enough that they get doubled by most everything and have way less bulk, so it’s easier for any unit to just sit in range with a killer weapon.
Nothing matters on Normal Mode, do whatever.
Cecilia has 35 attack at base against a wyvern lord with aircalibur, which is probably only 3 or 4 damage less then Igrene’s output with the silver bow when you consider that wyvern lords have practically no res.
The difference is actually about 8 damage against the Wyvern Riders. 6 against the Wyvern Lords.
Speaking of Damage against Wyvern lords, let’s bring out the banana lad, Lugh.
No for the reasons I just mentioned and I’m sceptical you’re getting him to 20/10 by Ch21 unless you’re taking your time just to make him powerful for the fun of it.
The only other sniper who can replicate this without legendary weapons at 20/10 is Dorothy, and Woly and Dorothy both are far harder to train then Lugh because Lugh hits on Res and has the best weapon in the game, the 95 accuracy fire tome.
I won’t dispute that but both see the same kind of use throughout the early game and get benched roughly at the same time too. The problem with the FE6 Archers is only that their base stats are bad. If they had good base stats (and maybe if support ranks were quicker to obtain) then they’d be worthwhile using. Every other thing about them and the game falls into their favour, it’s just the base stats hold them back.
The longbow isn’t that good a weapon because it has 55 hit, and sages can use bolting to outrange them.
It has 65 Hit which is only 5 less than Bolting’s. It’s also available in at least 3 different locations in a playthrough versus Bolting which is only available once and has far fewer uses.
The killer bow is a great weapon, yes, but is a worse investment then killer lances and edges, on weaker units.
A Killer Lance or Killing Edge is unlikely to OHKO many difficult flying enemies which is something the Killer Bow can do. Perceval possibly can but not many others.
The Brave Bow also fails to kill wyvern lords effectively, at base Igrene has 46*2 attack with it, dealing 54 damage to our wyvern lord, leaving them with some hp left, so they serve the same purpose as an aircalibur sage, taking most of a wyvern lords hp.
It can potentially be a better option against fast high Res Falcon Knights though. It can also do a better job of killing other frail and fast enemies. Getting Igrene and Klein some way of making up the Atk difference between their join chapters and the map with the hardest fliers to fight, Ch21, isn’t out of the question either whether that be through Str procs or Atk boosting Support bonuses.
Alongside this, aircalibur is more accurate then every bow in the game, making sages more reliable then snipers for chipping and killing wyverns.
You have to factor in the Skill difference between your best Aircalibur user and the Snipers though which is a difference of 4 or 5 Skill.
I think this is what helps the archers in the case of FE6 so much; their chip damage is invaluable, particularly earlier ok and against Wyvern Riders, so they have tons of excuses to gain large amounts of levels and raise their stats. Lugh is good for this as well, but you really just don’t get access to strong magic in quite the same way, and Lugh has lower bases than someone like based lord Dorothy. I think it’s more reasonable to think of Lugh getting to 15/10 or even 15/15 if you’re a slower player on Hard and abuse staves as much as possible. Part of it is that I love using the terrible units in every game, and that Dorothy is literally my favorite archetype (terrible base stats female archer with high growths).
This thread’s about more than just Archers, since usually the discussions over Archers also tends to bleed into Bows as a whole;
Archers in FE6 are interesting in that I’d say they’re the only bad Bow class in the game and that’s solely due to bad base stats. I’d even say Warrior is a good Bow class, Bartre is a decent unit at base with great Strength and while it’s not worthwhile, by the time Wade and Lot are promoted their biggest issues will be behind them and they can make themselves useful easily. Wolt and Dorothy can also be great when promoted, it’s just getting them to that point is difficult on the basis of their base stats.
should’ve probably quoted this, but I was replying to the person above you who said: Everything after I quoted you was meant to respond to you.
This claim is pretty weak. Lugh joins early enough that he can definitely get kills fed to him, and he’s definitely capable of taking kills and getting good, thanks to accurate chip on Res. Lugh definitely gets to the point where he can double and hit hard, and after promotion he’s capable of providing accurate chip and healing. Along with this, fire is a great weapon against some scary bosses such as Henning, providing safe, accurate chip. A 11/1 Lugh deals 10 damage to Henning at 60 hit, providing a way to easily hit him without taking a counter so that Rutger can more easily take him down. While Lilina and Hugh are far weaker units then Lugh, because they’re mages they can easily chip and contribute, meaning they can still be trained and turn into competent units. Wolt meanwhile has to hit on defense, meaning that he struggles to chip enemies that Lugh can with ease, dealing 2-3 damage to cavs in 4 at base str, where Lugh deals 6-7. I will agree that Klein is a superior unit to Lugh, but Klein’s kinda cheating because he’s an early joining prepromote with excellent ranks and stats, he’d be great as practically any other class.
Yeah there’s kinda only one class in the game that doesn’t get better with better stats and that dancers Yes, Archers would be better with better base stats, and snipers are at some of their best in FE6, the fact that they can even be argued against sages as a class is impressive here, where in FE7 nobody would argue Wil>Erk or Louise>Pent. However, sages are still a superior class thanks to fire being better as a weapon, staves, and 1-2 range.
melady go wheeeeeee
and also flying enemies are just one of the many enemies you’ll be using killers for, and killer lances and edges are available for better units who do a better job of fighting enemies or have a higher movement range. Killer bows are nice, but killing edge rutger or killer lance allance/shanna/melady/perceval etc all perform better in combat.
Bow users are great against falco knights, but even on hard mode these fellows aren’t quite as terrifying as wyverns and can be dealt with other units. Because they have low defense, many other units can deal with them quite well. Both Klein and Igrene have a pretty low str growth, and you can get str procs with cecilia too, which is easier because she can use staves for a consistent source of exp.
alright, 10/10 Lugh has 16 skill. HMB Klein has 16.6 skill at level 10. A level 5 Igrene has 17.4 skill, so they’re all about equal. Admittedly, Cecilia has really low skill (a whopping 10 at level 8, wooo) so that gap will be fixed there.
Magic doesn’t need stronger tomes, it hits on res and does far more chip damage with far more accuracy then poor Dorothy with her steel bow and inconsistent hit-
favoritism at it’s finest
it’s fine, it’s fine, I’ll just pull out a funny favoritism calc. I enjoy Hugh. Let’s get him to 20/1 by chapter 17 so that he can do stuff. Even instapromoted, he gets aircalibur. With an average 15 speed, he doubles the wyvern riders here and kills them. He grows stronger. chapter 21 pops up, he’s at 20/5, has 17 speed, and doesn’t double with aircalibur. Let’s fix that. You get 3 speedwings throughout the game, let’s hand them to him. He now onerounds everything flying on the map with aircalibur, I buy him 4 robes and a bunch of other statboosters and he sweeps the rest of the game. Snipers successfully outclassed. Argument over, throwing this mic off a cliff, no possible argument could ever sway me.
As the dude that made the funny archer emblem hack:
In a player phase FE game, 2-3 range bows works fine, it gives archers a workable niche that seperates them enough from mages
In an enemy phase FE game, archers are hopeless. You are just never going to get an FE4, FE7, FE8, or FE9 archer to be an optimal choice for combat. The simple fix is to give them skills that allow them to be useable outside of the 1 enemy they kill per turn, whether that is actual skills (rallies, spurs, galeforce, counter, etc.) or other utility options (the ability to pick locks, staves, steal utility, etc.)
As broken as enemy phase games are, they can be great for cinematic or narrative purposes, to highlight how strong you’ve become. But yes, they screw archers over and create a big gap between units in terms of exp gain.
That reminds me… Maybe archers should have Paragon to bridge the gap.
This depends on the archer’s stats, if they can take kills without any problems then sure but if they’re doing less damage than the other units to the point of it taking effort to give them kills then they will be falling behind on exp because their main source of it will be chip, even in a player phase game. Just look at most people’s experiences with Wolt on FE6 hard mode, because of how bad his stats are he’ll only ever be getting the 10 exp from chip and the very rare 30 exp from a kill unless they’re favoring Wolt.