make wyverns less tanky and summoners should only be able to summon every other turn, or the summons are guaranteed to disappear after an enemy phase
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I agree although I love my wyverns I do agree. When it comes to the summoner disappearing summons this is 100% something that needs to be done. It would open so much for the type of summons. Perhaps you summon a falcon knight, with high move and no damage, just to scout ahead?
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Wyverns needs more weaknesses imo. Bows / Wind or Thunder Magic are the main two.
I would slow down Wyverns so they are basically armor knights with mounts. And in my hack Iâve made them all Armored. So Armorslayers and Rapiers are super effective vs them too.
I feel like itâs less of a nerf to wyverns themselves, but what counters can you add against them is the way it should be handled.
Have strong enemies/archers that can deal scary damage to Wyverns and remove exp gain on summon
If a player utilizes a wyvern really well and avoids their counters (bow users, magic users, strong axe users), I think itâs fine for the wyvern to be really strong (again assuming the enemies actually pose a threat to the wyverns)
And for summoners I think just not gaining any exp from them is a pretty huge nerf, essentially if you spam summon all you gain is a decoy rather than a decoy and 1/10 of the exp needed to level up
Iâd also actually change the summon itself, giving it the ability to trade but in return it doesnât start with any items, now you can give your decoy a weapon to chip away at enemies but it will cost you, so the utility of the summon still exists and gains a bit of new utility beyond just fighting, but now it isnât something youâd want to spam constantly
Strong archers and ballistae I guess. I also added wind magic to my romhack, which is of course effective against all flying foes. That should help too.
Dancer, they allow my jagen to steal more exp.
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if exp gain were completely removed from summons then the summoner would essentially be as useless as the ballistician class in fates, its fire skill didnât grant exp so they could never level up since they had low move and couldnât safely secure normal kills.
I disagree, removing the 10 exp does not make or break the ability to summon a free decoy unit, there is absolutely no downside to summoning a phantom and if it gives exp then there is no reason to not constantly spam the ability
The amount of strategic value an expendable unit that deals damage and grants free exp completely separate from combat/healing (meaning more exp for the rest of the party) is pretty crazy, a well used summoner will level up completely for free every 10 turns, assuming they arenât danced in which case they could generate free level ups for themselves even quicker
In a game where death is permanent consequence, someone who can repeatedly summon an expendable fighter, lose absolutely nothing from doing so, and gain experience just for existing, is pretty insane
Edit: Take Knoll for example, instant promote Knoll into a summoner at chapter 14 (Ephraim), by chapter 18 heâll already have leveled up 4 times from doing nothing, add Tethys into the mix and now he would have leveled up 8 times for putting himself in no danger (assuming you take 10 turns per chapter, if you take longer then he gets even more exp for free), even if he had 0 in every stat except magic heâd still be super useful for staff utility and baiting enemies, he can trivialize every boss in the game by destroying their weapons and slowly wearing them down, all while maintaining a 50 ft distance from his enemies
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gaining exp is not so much the problem as it is the amount and youâre overselling the decoy unit by a little, it can distract one to eight enemies (highly unlikely) for a turn, it dies immediately and it shouldnât be used for attacking. In a game like fire emblem where death is permanent having something like this is extremely useful but it doesnât break the game. The phantom rarely kills so itâs more like helpful tech than extra damage. Having summons locked behind a promotion of a rare class should also be taken into account for sacred stones.
perhaps instead of ten exp it should give two, that way it can both stop the summoner from leveling multiple times a map and it still allows them to grow with your other units.
Why? As I said earlier you lose nothing for it dying (It can come back whenever, all damage it deals is permanent unless the enemy heals, enemies use weapon uses to kill it which is permanent) all you âloseâ is the phantom which opens up the ability to gain more exp
If you changed the exp gain to 2 from 10, I wouldnât mind but at that point I feel like itâs practically useless, but then again free exp is free exp
Depends on the game, but usually the broken classes are either ones that have exceptionally high movement and good stats (wyverns/bulky fliers, pallys) or access to something that other classes just canât do (dancers and summoners.) In a vacuum, staff users arenât broken as they tend to rely on other units to actually do work, and just how good their supporting power is is based on which game youâre playing. While not broken, having good range tends to help with carrying a class - see FE2/15 Bow Knights. If I had to pick one, though, itâd probably be wyverns with paladins at a close second, though dancers would probably be really close in third.
phantoms donât have high skill so they have low hit with axes and they arenât exactly dodgy so itâs obvious that they were meant less for the purpose of maybe dealing some damage and more so for the purpose of baiting enemies and since they have extremely low hp and defense they become a magnet for enemies to the point where they can reliably save characters at deaths door which is a wonderful mechanic for a game with permadeath.
My point is why not attack, what do you lose from attacking? itâs just free damage if it hits, or it just wastes an entire turn from an enemy if it misses (this last part being on enemy phase only, just thought iâd specify that lol), itâs general purpose is baiting enemies that much is easy to understand, but they can have more than one purpose
Yes, but usually you can deal much more free damage just by attacking with the summoner instead of summoning and attacking with the phantomâŚ
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the reason why you shouldnât attack is because if they miss or donât kill theyâll likely die and unless youâre using tethys or another summoner you need to wait until the next player phase to summon another one, simply having a chance to kill an enemy isnât as worth it as guaranteeing an enemy or even multiple to essentially waste their turn. Itâs not that attacking isnât beneficial, itâs just that waiting is overall more beneficial
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lol, when I say âfree damageâ I mean like literally free since thereâs no real cost besides your player phase turn I guess (which isnât all that important in an enemy phase game like FE8), ofcourse you can let the summoner do other things besides just pumping out phantoms, but they can do those other things while pumping out phantoms which gives them bonus exp and free damage
Yeah thatâs a fair point, I think at this point it depends on the playstyle for the player, for me personally I found phantoms more useful attacking the enemy and dealing chips of damage to them, and using Tethys along with them can give you the best of both worlds, free chip on player phase and decoy on enemy phase, what I usually do is just position the Summoner in enemy range as well which allows them to fight as a normal unit while also getting an extra 10/20 exp per player phase