Has a FE game ever tied Weapon Ranks to Class and EXP/Unit Use to Story Progression?

Hear me out… What if nobody gains EXP or Weapon EXP during battle? You clear a map, and then your whole army gains EXP even if they weren’t even deployed. Nobody gets overlevelled or underlevelled.

You hit level 10 and ask… Do I promote from Myrmidon to Swordmaster to instantly get S-Rank Swords, or Hero for A-Rank Swords and B-Rank Axes, or Master Of Arms for B-Rank Swords, Lances, Axes, and Bows, or keep going until level 15 for the better Myrmidon Skill, or keep going until level 20 for the stats? Promote too soon and you’ll still be punished in the long run by the loss of total levels gained.

Nobody has a Skill Slot wasted by something boring like “gains EXP faster” or “Gains Weapon EXP faster”. Nobody has meaningful choices stripped away because the best move is to always kill with the EXP-boosting weapons and inherit the growth-boosting skill and get kills next to Byleth so you get more EXP.

Nobody micromanages their units to ensure certain guys level up mid-battle to hit stat benchmarks to double foes who would only be a threat if they doubled you. Nobody accidentally or intentionally pours so much EXP into their best unit, that best unit beats the game on autopilot. Nobody equips self-debuffing weapons to kill foes any hit could kill specifically to debuff the user, or gets hit with Enfeeble on purpose, or equips weak weapons on purpose, or unequips damage-boosting skills, or baits foes onto defense-boosting tiles, to intentionally reduce the damage foes take, or lets enemies heal, all to milk foes for more EXP and WEXP. Nobody ever weighs the benefits of anti-slow anti-turtling incentives vs the benefits of turtling slowly and chooses the latter.

“But EXP milking is a big part of raising your units!” Sometimes it’s a really tedious part of raising your units. Pair units for better Class access and better kids, swap classes for better skills, budget your gold with expensive Weapons and Forging in mind, there’s a lot you can do to make a unit stronger, and there’s a lot you can do to make your unit yours, even if you take away mid-fight EXP and WEXP gain.

You will never see a unit like Donnel immediately lose his Lance rank upon reclassing and get dragged down into E-Rank Weapon Hell. You will never have your daily playthroughs harmed by Ike Moments (when the game sends floods of weak enemies after you to die like bugs to Ragnell the bug zapper and give you EXP) or the Fates maps designed to feed you EXP. They can still make maps designed to feed you power whenever they want, they just have to be full of droppable and stealable stat boosts. Raid a castle treasury or enemy town or fort, or recover stolen loot in a bandit camp, it’s fun for all the family.

What do you really lose? The most boring way to break game balance?

Maps where the map objective is to ensure a certain Trainee Unit sees enough combat to level up at least once? Figuring out how to feed all the kills to Bowzu is interesting the first time you do it. Lex Talionis lets you run scripts on combat to check if a foe is fighting, and if a foe is fighting certain units or not. Right now it’s used for pre-battle boss conversations with and without the protagonist, but it could also be used to trigger the bad ending for scenarios where… Someone like Mozu or Saizo gets mad at you for not letting him deal the killing blow against the map’s boss. Or someone good forced onto the enemy side will betray them and join your side unless you prove yourself a villain by killing her men, who are enemies you don’t need to kill. Or a good Green Unit needs to be escorted to the final boss to talk this out, or prove you rescued her so he has no reason to keep serving the villains holding her hostage and he joins your side, but if you kill that boss, that green unit betrays or leaves you. Maybe a character who joined your army because of her would betray or leave you too. You can also turn off EXP and Weapon EXP gain in Lex Talionis and use a script to add EXP to your whole army after every win. I was shocked at how easy it was when I implemented that design choice in my game. I expected it to be a massive ordeal like trying to get my custom triangle attack code to work properly without any bugs. Giving each class fixed weapon ranks took a little longer but not much longer. The hard part was deciding what to name my many promotion options. Probably too many promotion options. Maybe I should combine redundant promotion options again.

Anyway, what FE games intentionally make Weapon Skills part of the Class and EXP part of clearing levels, not progressing through them? I want to play more games like that, tell me their names and I’ll play them next.

And what FE games change your party’s members frequently to ensure your party is always at the intended power level and can’t hoard and smuggle tools into later parts of the game or overlevel a unit to trivialize the entire game?

1 Like

yeah fe4 exists

12 Likes
6 Likes

Uh, to really answer the title of the topic instead of the wall of text, there were actually some FE games that tied weapon ranks to certain classes, so that sometimes you couldn’t have a paladin that could use swords and other weapons, and a swordmaster have A/S rank in swords together.
Like Trapinch said, FE4 exists, alongside others like FE9 and FE Engage.

As for the other question, if you meant gaining exp for clearing a map, there’s Shadows of Valentia I think, even if it’s only for the units you’ve deployed (not really an issue for most of the overworld battles tho).

3 Likes

do you actually even like fire emblem? all your threads are about changing fire emblem to be essentially not fire emblem

3 Likes

Grumble grumble rabble Jason rabble grumble Jason grumble

Am I doing this right?

I think it’s a good idea tbh

It’s different from most FEs, but there’s nothing wrong with the idea. If done well, it should be more balanced on paper.

I guess units will feel a bit same-y tho

4 Likes

This is the most fun digression in the opening post.

2 Likes

The xp thing is a neat idea, but its not without its issues. Treating it like PoR’s bonus xp would make it too easy to dump all the xp into 1 or 2 units and have them sweep through maps. Going the communism route and giving everyone the same amount of xp could make lower-leveled units much harder to use, and the “zero to hero” units could run into a lot of issues. On one hand, Nino would become unusable being unable to catch up to everyone else, while on the other, Donnel would become way too easy to train because there’d be no reason to make him fight.
That said, a PoR-type xp system could limit how much xp you can give to each unit to keep the player from pouring all of it into 1 or 2 units. Hell, you could even take some other stuff from PoR like giving more xp depending on if the player did some side objectives or something.
The communism system could give different amounts of xp to each unit depending on what they did during the map, up to a point. Units deployed on a map could get more xp compared to units on the bench, and units who killed enemies, used staves, unlocked chests, or contributed in other ways could get a little extra. You could even combine the two systems; for example, giving everyone a flat amount of xp after the battle, then giving the player extra xp to distribute to whoever they want. Just throwing ideas out there; point is, you could probably find ways to fix those issues.

As a side note, tying weapon level to classes is pretty nice, honestly. It could take away from unit identity a little, but there are plenty of ways to could make up for it.

2 Likes

I know you’ve spent three years of your life so far working on not just a fighting game, but a fighting game strongly inspired by Street Fighter 2, which is a game you’ve said many times is your favourite in the series and the one you’ve replayed the most, but many of the decisions you’re making with the game you’re designing according to your philosophy and for your own tastes make it not exactly like Street Fighter 2, and many of the decisions you’re making with the game you’re designing make it not exactly like Street Fighter 1, 3, 4, 5, or Alpha, or any of the others, or any of the crossovers… I have to ask, do you even like Street Fighter? I just don’t understand the philosophy that guides design decisions in an unfinished game I haven’t played yet. Maybe if your favourite Street Fighter games are the ones without a certain mechanic usually in the series, and your game is specifically designed to remove it and everything exploitable about it and everything you find dull about it, you don’t like the Street Fighter series as a whole.

Kidding, anyone who spends three years making one game clearly has a great love of the genre and his favourite games in that genre, and strong opinions on what he does and doesn’t want his game to include.

I love fair fights. I love overcoming the odds in unfair fights. Fates Conquest is still my favourite FE game, but I still think its systems have room for improvement. I’m still experimenting with these systems. Ensuring the Donnel never needs to build his weapon rank was a good start, but I think we can go further. Let’s ensure the Donnel never needs to EXP grind outside of his map where for lore reasons (and because figuring out on my own how to feed literally every kill to Bowzu was fun the first time) that’s part of the challenge and zero to hero story played out in miniature, no pun intended.

I’m surprised nobody asked how paralogues interact with this “fixed EXP” system. I was thinking it’s enough of a reward for these paralogues to give you gold (with an interesting set of stores for spending it) or new characters/items/personal skill upgrades/stat boosters/consumable skill scrolls/something else. Or, if the paralogue can’t give rewards for lore reasons, unlock other paralogues that do.

Units in the same class with the same stats and skill choices, sure. My game puts a lot of emphasis on personal weapons, personal Combat Art lists, personal reclass options, multiple promotion path crossovers, and Personal Skills so units sharing the same class should still feel distinct. Plus the Master Of Arms who was a Myrmidon and the Master Of Arms who was a Soldier have different Skills.

You’re right, but putting the burden of managing the army’s bonus EXP distribution on the player is begging for trouble. I’m not sure if there is a system for giving specific amounts of bonus EXP to specific units but I could probably add that.

I was thinking I’d script it so at the end of the map everyone’s autolevelled to the same number. Tier 1 classes auto-promote at lv20, promotions/reclassing won’t reset your level, and tier 2 classes have a maximum level of 40. People meant to be stronger or weaker or fulfill a certain niche (Jagen, Hyper-Jagen With Negative Growths, etc) for lore reasons can still have personal bonuses/penalties to stats and growths. Personal Skills can affect growth rates in LT and use conditions and combat conditions to get weird. A Swordsman’s personal skill could double his growth rates when fighting sword users. Not Donnel’s growths could multiply his level by 5 and add it to his growth rates, and double his class’s growth rates upon promoting. One character afraid of the number four could be programmed to get -44 or even -444 for his growth rates every 4th level, with great stat gains on every other level to make up for it. I could make a unit’s stats over time fluctuate like the wildly unpredictable value of a memecoin, or even tie growths to map objectives. Saving an optional shrine that buffs the protagonist’s growth rates when saved could be part of a paralogue. And bonus objectives would be tied to gaining items/other resources, not bonus EXP. The possibilities are endless. I love python. I want to go back in time and kick my own ass for wasting time learning any language besides python. And english.