Perhaps from a writing perspective, forced losses are okay, but gameplay wise, they’re entirely counter to the point of the game (i.e. trying to win). I feel the new way still has the feeling of Karel not being able to beat the guy while also giving more room for exposition in his backstory while being more sound gameplay wise. It’s like, you can’t beat him after trying a lot so, he realizes he can’t win. Later dialogues should reflect that, at least.
The issue is that you now have inconsistencies between the writing and the gameplay. The writing tells us that Karel would likely only change if he’s straight up beaten, yet the gameplay tells us that he can somehow just be talked into changing.
Forced losses are not inherently bad, and saying they are “almost always questionable” is too much of a blanket statement. There are several games that have done forced losses, such as Chrono Trigger and Tales of Symphonia, and they don’t come off as strange or questionable. Rather, they push the story forward by either making the characters seek alternate paths (Chrono Trigger) or they must become stronger (ToS). In this case the forced loss forces Karel to seek that alternate path.
just mention that offscreen that Bartre beat him and you’re golden.
I say almost always meaning that there are cases where it’s done well. I had ToS in mind as well when I wrote that. is careful about my wording
Edit: Also, it’s not a forced loss in ToS either. You can do well enough and it just kicks you out of the battle.
Thank you, Prime. I love ya cuz you keep me honest :).
I’m going to do some revisions to the tale’s script as a whole – if you don’t mind, I’d love if I could send you the revisions for commentary. Thanks for makong me aware of your concerns regarding Karel’s characterization, and hopefully I can use this to strengthen the storytelling as a whole.
Specifically, I think that Karel is at least aware enough to recognize an insurmountable(ish) challenge (once the Runesword goes back to Str/2 and Kaherdin gets a result boost, lol), which would create cognitive dissonance which, if portrayed correctly, could be as psychologically damaging as an outright loss.
Just speaking my mind~ I like Karel’s tale because of the amount of progression it provides in the span of a tale. I think it also does a good job of telling how such a bloodthirsty warrior became much more of a pacifist. If you want to send me stuff, feel free.
I believe Karel is smart enough to realize he’s not strong enough to beat Kaherdin. However, if Karel just backs off, I feel like he would just be driven to become stronger so he could beat the guy.
Being beaten at your own game as opposed to just walking away are two different things, with different impacts.
Also, LOL at Bartre beating… anyone. The dude’s a chump.
i’m in agreement with prime here tbh; as cool as the AI is I just don’t think it’s intuitive to the story. WRT the forced loss, this isn’t like dragon quest or something where you can’t tell that you’re utterly outclassed (well, you can, but in FE it’s a lot more obvious) - this fight is pretty clearly not winnable without a lot of rigging, which should be a tip off that there’s something else going on here.
Maybe after the five talks (or after turn X because my instinct in an unwinnable boss fight scenario like that is actually to turn tail and run the fuck away) just have a scripted fight where kaherdin oneshots Karel or something.
After 5 talks, Kaherdin goes super saian, gets +10 to all stats, and a portrait change and a cool new sword.
and gets a theme song power up for good measure
something like this is mandatory
But, what if Shia came in and motivated Karel?
What would happen then?
If Kaherdin is written well enough I don’t mind if Karel wins in the end. Overcoming obstacles let people also grow. Though ist hard to make someone a believeable turn in the opposite direction. Just give Karel something to question his motives and let the time do the rest.
Karel doesn’t win in the end. He’s supposed to realize that he can’t win after getting talked at for 5 rounds. Not even, like being attempted to be defeated.
Amazing work on the hack. Just a quick bug report for Hector’s Tale: the visit event for the northern village doesn’t display the sprite properly.
Also, quick bit of spell-checking: “Lycian Council”, not “Lycian Counsel”.
An issue not related to the hack itself: would it be possible to link the most up-to-date version in the OP, as well as at other places (i.e., blog page, Serenes Forest thread)? I spent weeks trying to figure out how to get the new features to work before it clicked that I wasn’t playing the most recent version, and it took me awhile to hunt it down.
Lycian Counsel is correct, if rather archaic; counsel is a formal name for the group of legal advisors to a courtroom case (hence, it’s the group of advisors to the lycian league)
Wow, that /is/ archaic. I suppose it makes sense (“legal counsel”) but still seems out of place.
Oh, Pent’s Gaiden bugs out at the end: the ending scene loops infinitely and if you skip it with enter, the game locks.
Thank you for pointing this out. I’ve been terribly confused by all the bug reports I’m getting for things that I remember fixing, lol. OP has been updated with the latest download link.
The latest can be downloaded here. My intent is to have an updated patch in the next week or two. My job has proven to be rather time consuming, so I’ve been pecking away at EN during my minimal spare time. Thank you to everyone for their patience, I still intend to have the final release ready for FEE3.
October 4th. #BreakTheCurse
I’ll believe it when I see it
Curse master race
I discarded the Eckesachs and now I’m stuck in the void!
y wood u do dis tho