A Chinese FE8 hack---the Crystal of Wisdom

[MisakaMikoto]

@Arch

but there’s not much we can do about it when they don’t speak our language

No no no, I remember that I banned his account permanently in a tieba before. It is him who can do nothing except biting others like that.

[Arch]

It’s “only piracy” until it gets republished. Then it becomes theft, yo. This ain’t that hard to wrap the brain around.

Which is why ROM Hackers publish in patches to circumvent because we’re really only distributing changelogs to things that people pirate for themselves. Things in that changelog can still be stolen from other sources, like mugshots, animations, etc.

[Klokinator]

It’s not theft. It can’t be called theft. There’s a very specific reason I argue this point every time it comes up. It’s the same reason we don’t just have ‘murder’, we have different shades of murder in the eyes of the law. If I kill a million people, I’m not a murderer, I’m genocidal. If I accidentally discharge a firearm, I’m criminally negligent or some other offshoot.

If you keep calling it theft, you’re calling it the wrong thing. I don’t mind people who want to protect their property, and I don’t mind if artists want people to ask before using things (And then subsequently NOT use the things if denied), that’s fine. What I will not accept is calling a fish a dog just because that’s what we’ve always done.

I mean, if Intelligent Systems suddenly up and sued the community for ‘stealing’ their roms to hack them, I know the community’s tone would change really fast. People would suddenly be saying “Well, I mean, it’s not exactly stealing…”

Furthermore, by calling it theft, you dilute the meaning of the word theft, just like calling WWII mass murderers plain old ‘murderers’ diminishes the level of atrocities they committed. Call it piracy, or call it unauthorized distribution, because that’s what it is.

[Lisandra_brave]

Man, I hate when I agree with klok.

[Arch]

@Klokinator

I mean, if Intelligent Systems suddenly up and sued the community for ‘stealing’ their roms to hack them, I know the community’s tone would change really fast. People would suddenly be saying “Well, I mean, it’s not exactly stealing…”

@Arch

Which is why ROM Hackers publish in patches to circumvent because we’re really only distributing changelogs to things that people pirate for themselves. Things in that changelog can still be stolen from other sources, like mugshots, animations, etc.

It’s kind of like diplomatic immunity. THIS IS WHY WE DON’T POST ROMS!

@Klokinator

Furthermore, by calling it theft, you dilute the meaning of the word theft, just like calling WWII mass murderers plain old ‘murderers’ diminishes the level of atrocities they committed. Call it piracy, or call it unauthorized distribution, because that’s what it is.

On a scale of “something random on the internet” to “robbing the federal reserve,” yeah, maybe it’s not as big of a deal. But, I think your little infograph definition of “theft” narrowly bases the distinction on what happens to the original item. Yes, that’s one way to define it, but it’s not the only way. There are different shades of theft. When someone downloads a pirated movie and keeps the copy saved on their personal computer, that’s piracy. When that same person uses the downloaded file to burn DVDs and distribute unauthorized copies of the original work, it becomes theft. That’s exactly what happens every time someone publishes a patch with stolen art - they are distributing unauthorized copies, and that makes it “theft.”

[Klokinator]

Actually, in the case of DVD’s, unless it’s being sold by the downloader for cash, it’s still piracy. There needs to be a term for piracy distributors though, like the difference between different levels of killings.

Murder
Mass-murder
Homicide
Genocide
Etc

So if I download a movie, that’s piracy. However, if I download a movie and burn 50 copies for friends of mine, it’s… what? I guess mass-piracy? But I digress.

@Arch

On a scale of “something random on the internet” to “robbing the federal reserve,”

The difference… once again… is if you rob the Federal Reserve, the money is gone. ‘Something random on the internet’ is still there… but the Federal Reserve notes are actually physically gone.

[Arch]

@Klokinator

The difference… once again… is if you rob the Federal Reserve, the money is gone. ‘Something random on the internet’ is still there… but the Federal Reserve notes are actually physically gone.

@Arch

I think your little infograph definition of “theft” narrowly bases the distinction on what happens to the original item. Yes, that’s one way to define it, but it’s not the only way. There are different shades of theft.

I would argue that “piracy distribution” falls into the category of “theft.” Maybe we’ll call it “petty theft,” if you want that sort of gradient.

[Klokinator]

Petty theft is closer. I think there needs to be a better term, but it’s closer.

[Primefusion]

Why the hell are you two arguing over pointless semantics?
Like, literally nothing will come out of this “piracy vs. theft” debate.
It doesn’t matter whether it falls under a certain definition because it’s still wrong.

[siguld]

Hello xiaolala

[Klokinator]

Nothing will come out of it? Nothing at all? So if you accidentally drop a thing and it somehow kills someone can we just call it a mass murder?

Because yes. This does matter. It matters very much. People who disagree about this are just shooting themselves in the foot. The problem is that law is determined by the majority of people. I’m 95% certain that every person in this discussion has at some point or another illegally downloaded a thing. Now imagine some company decides to go on a intellectual theft spree and they slam you up against the wall in front of a jury. Who do you want on that jury?

A. Bob, Billy, Joanna, and Martha, old geezers who say “Oh well he STOLE that movie?! 5 years!”
B. Tim, John, Becky, Sarah, old geezers with grandchildren who say “But it’s not actually theft. It’s still wrong, so I say a month’s community service.”

Because this shit matters. Law is influenced heavily by public opinion. Grabbing a lady’s purse may be wrong, but if the only criteria for you is ‘it’s still wrong’ then clearly grabbing an old lady’s purse and dashing away is the same thing as beating her head into the concrete and breaking her back before doing it. Why not just have the same level of punishment for both crimes? I mean, it’s wrong both ways, right?

If you don’t start changing how you refer to it, this shit may only get more obscene over time. As people who get technology we’re supposed to be explaining this to people who don’t get technology. And if public opinion is wrong about something, it needs to change over time.

Or hell, just keep disagreeing because it’s Klok making the point and not someone else. I’m sure my opinion and thought process matter little to people. I know people love their politicking.

[Arch]

@Klokinator

I know people love their politicking.

I actually quit the politics and my new job title is “legal process clerk.”

There’s a difference between “the law as it is written” and “the law as it is enforced.” Can that enforcement change? Sure. Nobody should go to jail for pirating a movie, which is why those laws aren’t currently enforced. Same reason there’s a “penalty” for people who don’t have health insurance, but there’s actually no statute that authorizes the IRS to charge the penalty - it’s there to scare people into doing the “right thing.”

@Klokinator

Law is influenced heavily by public opinion.

The central question of politics is: how strongly does public opinion shape institutions, and how strongly do institutions shape public opinion? Through the course of all my studies, I haven’t really seen any evidence to support your statement. Gut instinct wants that statement to be true, of course, but there are so many other factors at play that public opinion rarely takes priority.

[Klokinator]

@Arch

Nobody should go to jail for pirating a movie, which is why those laws aren’t enforced.

While I agree with most of what you said, this part isn’t exactly true. It happens. Not often, but often enough to be a thing that does in fact happen.

https://www.google.com/search?q=man+goes+to+prison+for+pirating+a+movie&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Worth pointing out the majority of those people being punished were piracy distributors, and not piracy users, so it’s like taking down the drug dealer instead of worrying about the users themselves.

But let’s be honest, the drug war is also a failure so not a perfect analogy there either.

[Primefusion]

Hi slippery slope fallacy, how are you?

The reason it doesn’t matter whether we classify this hacker who is using other people’s work without permission is because we will judge them the same regardless. We, as a community, do not appreciate people using other people’s stuff without permission. Whether you classify them as a thief or a pirate is irrelevant.

All you’re doing is arguing whether we should use blue-tinted tar instead of standard black for our feathering session.

[Arch]

@Klokinator

Worth pointing out the majority of those people being punished were piracy distributors, and not piracy users, so it’s like taking down the drug dealer instead of worrying about the users themselves.

But let’s be honest, the drug war is also a failure so not a perfect analogy there either.

It’s the same way drug dealers get slammed with possession charges and distribution charges. Most of the time, the possession charges are used as plea bargaining chips - usually get dropped by admitting guilt.

And I agree that the war on drugs is a failure on multitudes of levels; but after learning about the process behind prosecutions, at least they’re structurally efficient at throwing dealers in prison.

[Lisandra_brave]

But clearly the whole community doesn’t feel this way. If they did, we would never have this discussion, instead of having it every single time something like this comes up.

[Klokinator]

Let’s be honest, it’s usually me VS the community. I don’t see any others speaking up other than a tepid 'I kinda agree with klok" and the agreement with me is hardly uniform with the disagreement with me.

[Klokinator]

@Primefusion

All you’re doing is arguing whether we should use blue-tinted tar instead of standard black for our feathering session.

Actually, I don’t think there should be a feathering session at all.

Let me make this clear, as someone who’s been in the community for 12 years maybe longer, I’ve seen “the process” happen dozens of times. It never changes, with maybe two exceptions.

1. Guy posts on forum “Hey everyone, I made a hack and look at all these cool mugs”
2. Person recognizes the mugs, maybe just one of them. “OH MY GOD YOU STOLE THOSE FROM MAGEKNIGHT!!! FUCKING SHITLORD THIEF!”
3. Whole community jumps in at this point “OH MY GOD I CAN’T BELIEVE YOU’D DO THAT WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU!”
4. Guy apologizes profusely, but everyone keeps jumping on him. He finally leaves.

Number 4 changes sometimes. For example, it could go more like:

4. Guy sees anger directed at him. “Hey who gives a shit, my hack is great and if you don’t like it you’re a shitty dickwad!” and he leaves.

or even

4. Guy leaves the community immediately, no follow up posts after initial community gangbang.

Assuming the person never apologizes, fuck 'em. I don’t care, they deserved what they got. But on the other hand, two instances come to mind where this thing did not go down that way.

1. Guy posts hack. “Hey guys check out my hack I made! It has animations and mugs and stuff.”
2. Person posts in thread. “Oh hi there JimBob1401, I’m not sure if you realize this, but you’re not really allowed to take animations from the community without asking for permission. Please remove them.”
3. Guy replies “OH gosh, sorry. I didn’t realize that was bad. I’ll remove them immediately.”

This is what I want to see. I’ll admit, I’ve historically been part of the problem. I started some threads fairly recently including the big art theft thread at SF from that one obscure forum. I let myself jump in on the community gangbang, but I decided explicitly after the last thread not to do that anymore.

Now let’s look at this recent example. Let’s say the guy who posts his hack is politely told that he shouldn’t take from other hacks without asking, and his response comes out more like:

3. “Fuck you! I worked hard ripping these animations with FEditor [lol] so they’re mine to use! Piss off you blimey cuntwagon!”

Well, I don’t care. I say jump his ass, mock him, shit on him, etc. But for god’s sake, we need to as a community stop jumping all over people for ‘stealing’ and give them time to apologize and not feel unwelcome. Most people don’t read the rules, and people certainly don’t read all the stickies. A slight clarification can make all the difference in a new hacker being booed out, or apologizing, changing his ways, and sticking around.

Now if only I could find those two exception threads. I feel like one was on Blazer’s forum, and I can’t recall the other one much at all.

[Arch]

@Klokinator

Now let’s look at this recent example. Let’s say the guy who posts his hack is politely told that he shouldn’t take from other hacks without asking, and his response comes out more like:

“Fuck you! I worked hard ripping these animations with FEditor [lol] so they’re mine to use! Piss off you blimey cuntwagon!”

Well, I don’t care. I say jump his ass, mock him, shit on him, etc. But for god’s sake, we need to as a community stop jumping all over people for ‘stealing’ and give them time to apologize and not feel unwelcome. Most people don’t read the rules, and people certainly don’t read all the stickies. A slight clarification can make all the difference in a new hacker being booed out, or apologizing, changing his ways, and sticking around.

Okay, so let’s talk about this part. You’ve basically put the burden on the victims of “crime” to accept the offender back into the community. From what I can gather, it seems like this guy (who we didn’t know about until this thread got posted) responded to “you don’t have permission to use those” with “Fuck you!” as his first reaction. Acted like enough of a shithead to get banned, so my sympathies are definitely lessened.

If someone gets called on it, the proper response is: remove the work when asked! Respecting the artist’s wishes, that’s all it really takes. But I do agree on one point, public shaming isn’t productive. It makes a stronger statement to simply remove the topic and move on. Handle it through PMs, and if a resolution happens and they repost their project with the content removed, just carry on and “welcome back.” But when this becomes a pattern of behavior, or when people respond to these situations with more undesirable behavior, it becomes a problem. That’s when fools need to get banned. We want people to learn from mistakes, but at the same time, letting people get away with this sets a poor example.

[Klokinator]

Oh, I should be clear that I don’t care about the guy quoted in the OP. He’s a dick, fuck him.

I’m talking about people in the English community.

@Arch

You’ve basically put the burden on the victims of “crime” to accept the offender back into the community.

Not really. Most people who use sprites from other romhacks don’t know it’s bad to do what they did. A polite call-out should set them on the straight and narrow. If it doesn’t, then fuck 'em.

@Arch

letting people get away with this sets a poor example to the community at large.

How is calling someone out for bad behavior politely and them apologizing/removing the offending works ‘allowing bad behavior’? If a child grabs a cookie out of the cookie jar the first time and you swat his hand and tell him “don’t do that”, I would say that’s not letting him get away with it. On the other hand, if he does the exact same thing again and you repeat the same action, then you’re letting him get away with it.

One might argue ‘these people aren’t children!’ but then again, a recent survey on the FE subreddit showed some 16% of all respondents were 12 years old or younger. I started hacking when I was about 13. Not to mention, that even if they are older, many people still don’t “get” the nature of the internet. Why scream and berate them from the get-go rather than allowing them the benefit of the doubt? If you allow them the benefit and they THEN go on and say ‘fuck you bleh bluh’ then yeah, who cares? They deserve it. Give them hell.

And if they apologize and remove it, but you catch them doing it again later on, then you should jump down their throat ten times more, because now they know and there is no excuse for that behavior.